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How the Anti-Vaccine Community Is Responding to Covid-19

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101–110 of 111 posts

Re: How the Anti-Vaccine Community Is Responding to Covid-19

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But when the consensus is based upon for-profit goal-seeking corps that have engaged in successful regulatory capture, it is your duty to question it. Why, pray tell, are the US's vax schedules so heavy compared to Europe? Are all their doctors quacks are is our medical system bought-and-sold by B-schoolers? I know the answer and I doubt you're willing to even entertain the truth much less accept it. But I'd love to…

> Why, pray tell, are the US's vax schedules so heavy compared to Europe? Are all their doctors quacks are is our medical system bought-and-sold by B-schoolers? What are the differences in vaccination schedule that you're worried about? We need to be specific in these kinds of discussion. It may be true that there is no difference in vaccination schedules, but it may also be true that the countries you claim have dif…

"We need to be specific..."

JustFuckingGoogleIt.com

Re: How the Anti-Vaccine Community Is Responding to Covid-19

#102
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because your whole argument is an example of an "argument to moderation" fallacy[1] that is only valid as long as there is some evidence that points to the fact that the majority medical opinion on vaccines is wrong (and of course, the majority opinion is not "everyone should get every vaccine there is all the time"). I mean, I get the point that name-calling doesn't help, but we can't just accept statements that con…

> Because your whole argument is an example of an "argument to moderation" fallacy[1] that is only valid as long as there is some evidence that points to the fact that the majority medical opinion on vaccines is wrong (and of course, the majority opinion is not "everyone should get every vaccine there is all the time"). > I mean, I get the point that name-calling doesn't help, but we can't just accept statements that…

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Re: How the Anti-Vaccine Community Is Responding to Covid-19

#103
post #44

Often overlooked in commentary on anti-vaxxers, and by the anti-vaxxers themselves, is this: Freeloading The anti-vaxxers are freeloading on the herd immunity created and maintained by the smart people. That herd immunity prevents the regular epidemics & pandemics common before vaccines, when families often had 10 children to see a few survive to adulthood. There is plenty deliberate ignorance of history, Dunning-Kru…

>That herd immunity prevents the regular epidemics & pandemics common before vaccines Like Scarlet fever?

No.

Scarlet Fever is bacterial, not viral, and are fought by different parts of the body's immune system.

Few if any attempts at creating vaccines against bacteria are successful, whereas vaccines against viruses are typically more successful, although viruses such as Influenza can evolve new versions frequently, requiring new vaccine versions.

Re: How the Anti-Vaccine Community Is Responding to Covid-19

#104
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That herd immunity prevents the regular epidemics & pandemics common before vaccines Like Scarlet fever?

No. Scarlet Fever is bacterial, not viral, and are fought by different parts of the body's immune system. Few if any attempts at creating vaccines against bacteria are successful, whereas vaccines against viruses are typically more successful, although viruses such as Influenza can evolve new versions frequently, requiring new vaccine versions.

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Re: How the Anti-Vaccine Community Is Responding to Covid-19

#105
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because your whole argument is an example of an "argument to moderation" fallacy[1] that is only valid as long as there is some evidence that points to the fact that the majority medical opinion on vaccines is wrong (and of course, the majority opinion is not "everyone should get every vaccine there is all the time"). > I mean, I get the point that name-calling doesn't help, but we can't just accept statements that…

With all due respect, if you defend a position you don't even agree with (or where you can't/won't even point to a single piece of evidence) makes for a very unfruitful kind of debate. I mean, for every fringe position you can find some crank that "supports" it with some badly designed study, but strong claims (e.g. contradicting majority scientific opinion) require strong evidence not just "there are studies" (witho…

> With all due respect, if you defend a position you don't even agree with (or where you can't/won't even point to a single piece of evidence) makes for a very unfruitful kind of debate.

> I mean, for every fringe position you can find some crank that "supports" it with some badly designed study, but strong claims (e.g. contradicting majority scientific opinion) require strong evidence not just "there are studies" (without pointing to any such study; how should one even refute this?).

With all due respect, you are demonstrating a reading comprehension level of a 10 year-old. You have not even one time responded to my claims.

Re: How the Anti-Vaccine Community Is Responding to Covid-19

#106
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can't say as conflating antivaxxers with a pediatrician that recommends a delayed/modified vaccine schedule is exactly productive. Delayed/modified schedule isn't to blame for measles. Pretty disingenuous, IMO. > For those who don't know, there is a camp of people who believe that we're getting vaccinations at way too fast a schedule. Yes, this includes doctors, like the aforementioned pediatrician. It is not onl…

That is just absolutely not true. Hence it is an unsupportable claim. At least for the US, the CDC tracks every known case, and it is the unvaccinated that get the measles: https://www.cdc.gov/measles/cases-outbreaks.html

> That is just absolutely not true. Hence it is an unsupportable claim. At least for the US, the CDC tracks every known case, and it is the unvaccinated that get the measles: https://www.cdc.gov/measles/cases-outbreaks.html

That's nice. Now go present it to someone that is having a discussion about that. My discussion above is regarding calling people names instead of presenting evidence.

A better use of your time time might be to take a remedial reading comprehension course.

Re: How the Anti-Vaccine Community Is Responding to Covid-19

#107

Vaccines are an absolutely revolutionary technology. That said, mixing profit with essential medical technology is a recipe for failure. The first way to make something more profitable is to cut costs. What corners do these corps cut to up their margins? And how does that decrease health outcomes for some percent of the population? The bottom-line is that no for-profit corp can be trusted with your health. Vaccines m…

> Just compare our vax schedule in America to what they do in Europe. It's maybe 2x

Looks pretty similar to me: https://www.bmj.com/content/351/bmj.h5966/infographic

Re: How the Anti-Vaccine Community Is Responding to Covid-19

#108
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest, capable people don't put words in other people's mouths. Please show me where I said, "All of medicine is therefore bad." No, you said that. Now, will you apologize? I doubt it. Will you do better at reading and understanding in the future? I sincerely hope so.

>>Smart people are loathe to trust for-profit corps with their health. The sentence very clearly implies all, and nowhere in the post is an indication that you mean any restriction to part (vs all) of the med/pharm profession In fact, you go out of your way to point out the malfeasance pushing opioids and imply that it also applies to vaccines, when it is entirely different industry segments, companies, etc. I'll not…

>The sentence very clearly implies all, and nowhere in the post is an indication that you mean any restriction to part (vs all) of the med/pharm profession

Huh? Not trusting someone is not the same as implying that everything they do is bad.

Re: How the Anti-Vaccine Community Is Responding to Covid-19

#109
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That herd immunity prevents the regular epidemics & pandemics common before vaccines Like Scarlet fever?

No. Scarlet Fever is bacterial, not viral, and are fought by different parts of the body's immune system. Few if any attempts at creating vaccines against bacteria are successful, whereas vaccines against viruses are typically more successful, although viruses such as Influenza can evolve new versions frequently, requiring new vaccine versions.

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Re: How the Anti-Vaccine Community Is Responding to Covid-19

#110
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, let's understand a few things. First, I am self-quarantining, even though I do not have CoronaVirus. I wish for no harm to you, or to my fellow man. Second, I am a philosopher. After deep introspection, I have realized that even though, from my limited human perspective, it would be nice for large segments of the population to do certain things, and not do other things, it's not my place in the universe to force…

There's a lot to unpack here. First of all, "healthy people do not get diseases" is just flat out wrong, I don't know how you could support such a claim. Second, do you accept the inevitability of death in all things, meaning you take zero precautions to protect your own life in any and all situations of your life? You never wear a seatbelt, never go to a doctor, wouldn't stay clear of a person if you knew they had a…

"There's a lot to unpack here."

Yes there is; and it's the tip of the iceberg.

"First of all, "healthy people do not get diseases" is just flat out wrong, I don't know how you could support such a claim."

Fair enough! I concede that that was wrong, people do get diseases, and previously they might have been healthy, so as a statement standing by itself, evaluated as a truth or a claim by itself, it is definitely wrong.

Agreed.

Although, I would suggest that looking at it in context would provide a greater degree of what it was attempting to communicate, what I was trying to say.

But I agree that by itself, as a statement, claim and/or truth, it's wrong. Concur.

"Second, do you accept the inevitability of death in all things, meaning you take zero precautions to protect your own life in any and all situations of your life? You never wear a seatbelt, never go to a doctor, wouldn't stay clear of a person if you knew they had a very contagious disease, ...?"

Well, let's see. If I were driving, I would wear a seatbelt yes. And I have seen doctors in the past, that's true enough.

Would I stay clear of a person I knew had a contagious disease?

Well, I don't know.

Explain to me what you think a contagious disease is, if that contagious disease causes death or not (in other words, what am I risking), and what's the status of the person relative to my goals? In other words, am I getting to talk to Elon Musk? Might he give me a job? What's the risk and what are the rewards?

If I knew those things, then yes, I might be able to give you a hypothetical answer...

"If yes, I would be very surprised about your stoicism; otherwise it seems inconsistent."

I'm not as afraid of diseases as most people are. That is because I've done a ton of reading in many subjects (many many subjects!), and a ton of reading in medicine.

What scares most people in these areas -- doesn't have as much of an effect on me, because I know things that the average person does not.

"Lastly, do you really believe no person should ever be forced to do anything?"

Not by me. After a long time in meditation and deep introspection, I have realized that while there may be many people whose behaviors in various areas I don't like, don't appreciate -- that I'd rather work on my own toleration of them -- which is a quality which can be changed (acceptance or inacceptance of the behavior of what others do or don't do is a mental state -- it exists in your mind. If you can change your mind, you can rise above this... that is my goal for myself...)

"So, for example, a mother should not be forced to feed her child"

I am not prohibited from attempting to persuade, multiple times if need be, to this mother that feeding her child is a good idea, and socially beneficial.

Beyond persuasion, I will not use force. If it's my child, perhaps that's different, but if it's my child, why am I not feeding it (thus removing the obligation for the mother to be the sole party responsible). As I don't have children, I couldn't answer this question as applies to me, but all I can tell you is that polite repeated persuasion is permissible (to be used by me) -- but the use of force is not.

", or people should not be prevented from murdering other people? "

Again, same argument.

I can persuade, I can attempt to persuade them that what they are doing / have did (is/was) wrong, perhaps multiple times on muliple ocassions, maybe many times over, but I will not be the party using force against them.

"If not, your argument that unlimited freedom is the most important value to preserve falls flat and we must start talking about the situations in which you would restrict someone's freedom."

It's an important value to preserve for me. I should point out that the value does not exist as "unlimited", as that's an absolute, an extreme.

It's an ideal (for me), but it's an ideal that is not nor could ever be accomplished by a human living on the earth.

I am after all, human.

The philosophers of old used to think about things in "ideal" terms... for me, with respect to freedom, the challenge/goal I have set for myself... the "ideal" -- is to give all others theirs, even if it interferes with other others' freedom.

I can persuade (or attempt to persuade) other people that what they are doing might be wrong... but I can never coerce them, I can never use force.

"(I won't even go into how I think this notion of "freedom" is very simplistic because it ignores how un-free we are fundamentally due to situations outside of our control, e.g. very poor people are de facto not very free.)"

The more you try to control the universe... the more the universe will control you.

Simple example:

Find a wall.

Push on the wall.

Note that the wall pushes back at your hand with precisely the exact equal-and-opposite force that you apply to it. Precisely.

Now, take your hand away from the wall. Look at it. Is it exercising any control, any control over your hand? Is it pushing against your hand?

All objects/situations/people/places/things in the universe are like your hand with respect to the wall. If you do not attempt to control them -- you will not be controlled.

But if you do... expect and accept an equal-but-opposite force of control in precisely the same amount as you exert against the objects/situations/people/places/things that you are trying to control, by whatever means you are trying to control it.

My philosophy is that simple.

Newton's 3rd Law... applied to everything in the Universe that you or me or someone else would like to control...

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