Live data from Hacker News

How the Anti-Vaccine Community Is Responding to Covid-19

undark.org

11–20 of 111 posts

Re: How the Anti-Vaccine Community Is Responding to Covid-19

#11
post #6
post #3

I can't say as conflating antivaxxers with a pediatrician that recommends a delayed/modified vaccine schedule is exactly productive. Delayed/modified schedule isn't to blame for measles. Pretty disingenuous, IMO. For those who don't know, there is a camp of people who believe that we're getting vaccinations at way too fast a schedule. Yes, this includes doctors, like the aforementioned pediatrician.

Well, when a pediatrician recommends a delayed/modified vaccine schedule for pseudoscientific reasons, we call that doctor a quack.

> Well, when a pediatrician recommends a delayed/modified vaccine schedule for pseudoscientific reasons, we call that doctor a quack.

Why not provide a scientific argument instead of engaging in name-calling?

Re: How the Anti-Vaccine Community Is Responding to Covid-19

#12

Opinion: Forcing someone else to take a vaccine, if they don't want to, or forcing someone else NOT to take a vaccine, if they do -- is no different than forcing a woman to take an abortion if she doesn't want it, or forcing a woman NOT to take an abortion, if she does want it. It's no different than forcing a man to join the Military if he doesn't want to join, or forcing the man NOT to join the Military, if he does…

> Forcing someone else to take a vaccine, if they don't want to, or forcing someone else NOT to take a vaccine, if they do

"Making somebody pay taxes, if they don't want..."

Dude, this has been discussed ad infinitum. You don't want to take a vaccine? Fine. But then, do I have the knowledge to know you haven't taken it, as refusing to be around you, etc etc etc because you refuse to do something that is proven to better the life of humanity as a whole (And you can't prove otherwise). I could argue a lot more, but english is not my mother tongue.

Re: How the Anti-Vaccine Community Is Responding to Covid-19

#13
Vaccines are an absolutely revolutionary technology.

That said, mixing profit with essential medical technology is a recipe for failure.

The first way to make something more profitable is to cut costs.

What corners do these corps cut to up their margins? And how does that decrease health outcomes for some percent of the population?

The bottom-line is that no for-profit corp can be trusted with your health.

Vaccines must be developed and distributed by the government for the benefit of all human beings. Sure, we need to minimize cost but not to enrich the select few wealthy enough to be investors in the first place. If there is a surplus (profit), that money gets invested right back into R&D. No pharma-bros needed or wanted.

I am pro-vaccine and anti-for-profit-corps.

Yes, my kids are vaxed for measles and a few others, but, no, I did not go in for the entire schedule, which is frankly insane. Just compare our vax schedule in America to what they do in Europe. It's maybe 2x. And, yes, we will all get a Covid vax as soon as it is available.

But, remember, selling three of something (ETA: instead of two) that has a little margin gives you a 50% increase in profit. B-School types don't care that that third dose might be too much; besides, they can find/fund researchers to goal-seek safety for that extra 50%.

And, yes, vax is big business, just not as big as other meds.

And, yes, anti-vaxxers piss me off, too, the fucking anti-science morons. But people who trust for-profit corps with their health are stupid marks.

Re: How the Anti-Vaccine Community Is Responding to Covid-19

#14
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, when a pediatrician recommends a delayed/modified vaccine schedule for pseudoscientific reasons, we call that doctor a quack.

> Well, when a pediatrician recommends a delayed/modified vaccine schedule for pseudoscientific reasons, we call that doctor a quack. Why not provide a scientific argument instead of engaging in name-calling?

> Why not provide a scientific argument instead of engaging in name-calling?

That's just the issue - where is the evidence for delaying vaccination? Why are we just assuming that what's worked for decades is only now ineffective and suboptimal without data?

Re: How the Anti-Vaccine Community Is Responding to Covid-19

#15

Opinion: Forcing someone else to take a vaccine, if they don't want to, or forcing someone else NOT to take a vaccine, if they do -- is no different than forcing a woman to take an abortion if she doesn't want it, or forcing a woman NOT to take an abortion, if she does want it. It's no different than forcing a man to join the Military if he doesn't want to join, or forcing the man NOT to join the Military, if he does…

Unvaccinated people put the immuno-compromised, newborns and the elderly at risk. The state doesn't have the right to force you to vaccinate, but they do have the right to force you into quarantine if you're not.

Re: How the Anti-Vaccine Community Is Responding to Covid-19

#16
post #3

I can't say as conflating antivaxxers with a pediatrician that recommends a delayed/modified vaccine schedule is exactly productive. Delayed/modified schedule isn't to blame for measles. Pretty disingenuous, IMO. For those who don't know, there is a camp of people who believe that we're getting vaccinations at way too fast a schedule. Yes, this includes doctors, like the aforementioned pediatrician.

> I can't say as conflating antivaxxers with a pediatrician that recommends a delayed/modified vaccine schedule is exactly productive. Delayed/modified schedule isn't to blame for measles. Pretty disingenuous, IMO. > For those who don't know, there is a camp of people who believe that we're getting vaccinations at way too fast a schedule. Yes, this includes doctors, like the aforementioned pediatrician. It is not onl…

> but among other claims is one that states a popularly cited measles outbreak occurred with 95% of the people catching having been immunized

Source? Regardless, the large majority of aggregate cases of measles in the United States are among people who aren't vaccinated, which is a massive, massive over-representation and suggests that the measles vaccine is effective, regardless of specific anomalous cases.

I find this take of "being fair" to "nuanced" views quite common, but when I patiently let the whole anti-vax view be laid out, it is generally not particularly coherent nor well-sourced. I think stigma can be an effective way to change beliefs, because people can pretend they never held the belief in the first place. When you have someone lay out their whole argument, they often become more entrenched.

My source: https://www.cdc.gov/measles/cases-outbreaks.html

Re: How the Anti-Vaccine Community Is Responding to Covid-19

#17

Vaccines are an absolutely revolutionary technology. That said, mixing profit with essential medical technology is a recipe for failure. The first way to make something more profitable is to cut costs. What corners do these corps cut to up their margins? And how does that decrease health outcomes for some percent of the population? The bottom-line is that no for-profit corp can be trusted with your health. Vaccines m…

What costs do you think were cut? Which specific vaccines do you think do more harm than good?

Re: How the Anti-Vaccine Community Is Responding to Covid-19

#18
post #3

I can't say as conflating antivaxxers with a pediatrician that recommends a delayed/modified vaccine schedule is exactly productive. Delayed/modified schedule isn't to blame for measles. Pretty disingenuous, IMO. For those who don't know, there is a camp of people who believe that we're getting vaccinations at way too fast a schedule. Yes, this includes doctors, like the aforementioned pediatrician.

It's strange to label anyone who disagrees with a position in this way. Sure, some disagreements are spurious, but is every single disagreement spurious? Is every single person in the group incapable of rationally coming to reasonable conclusions on their own, so must be dismissed as some crazy eyed person that has a fundamental inability to understand scientific data?

I don't think such treatment is productive.

A) It makes members of the group feel persecuted, which tends to not change anyone's mind

B) Also benefits the pro-side by giving them a demon to slay

However, neither A nor B will answer any real disagreements possessed by the targeted group, and will thus not eliminate those holding to the position on a rational basis. Instead, it'll just perpetuate A and B, leading to greater polarization. It may also grow the targeted group, since at least we Americans tend to have sympathy for the underdog position that appears unfairly persecuted.

Re: How the Anti-Vaccine Community Is Responding to Covid-19

#19
There are a couple of other groups I would like to be interviewed as well.

- Economists who have bought into the crowding out theory. Are they consistent and still oppose government spending? [1]

- People/corporations who have lobbied for and taken advantage of all kinds of loopholes in taxation as to avoid paying taxes and who think taxation is theft, and are now expecting government to pay them out from this mess. [2]

- The ones that vouch for strong IP and patent protection. Do they propose to not share any information between research groups and give them even longer patents to incentivize better innovation?

[1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/crowdingouteffect.asp [2] I cite no examples. I am astonished if there is none, though.

Re: How the Anti-Vaccine Community Is Responding to Covid-19

#20
post #3

I can't say as conflating antivaxxers with a pediatrician that recommends a delayed/modified vaccine schedule is exactly productive. Delayed/modified schedule isn't to blame for measles. Pretty disingenuous, IMO. For those who don't know, there is a camp of people who believe that we're getting vaccinations at way too fast a schedule. Yes, this includes doctors, like the aforementioned pediatrician.

I read the article as calling out this one particular pediatrician. Reading his Wikipedia article makes me highly skeptical of his judgment, because it seems to be based on something other than data and science: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Sears_(physician)
Post reply on HN