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Ask HN: Why did you leave the tech industry?

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Re: Ask HN: Why did you leave the tech industry?

#471
post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am through getting mauled in tech interviews which turned into combat trivial pursuit. I love technology and I still create applications mostly for myself or to help automate my school. This. Something has definitely changed in the last ~10 to 20 years since the end of the dotcom era of interviewing in the tech industry. Before it was as simple as reading the AUTHORS file in an open-source project like Linux to v…

Interviewing is going to drive me from the industry. I'm skilled - I've consistently provided high value at my jobs - but I'm not formally trained (don't have a CS degree) and I don't have the time anymore to sit around grinding leetcode just so I can land my next gig.

the #1 reason i think about leaving is due to the interviews as well (also not formally trained). im about 6 years in and its just getting worse and worse. the thought of spending my free time studying for interviews is so miserable. on top of that, i realized recently i have a lot of childhood trauma and interviews are very triggering due to the often combative, critical nature.

it's kinda depressing in a way, because coding was at first, something that pulled me out of the slump i was in due to a shitty upbringing. i really like writing code, but the industry sure does know how to suck all the fun out of it.

Re: Ask HN: Why did you leave the tech industry?

#472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to see that video. I would call this "Chipotle Syndrome". It is a long-held hypothesis I have that MBAs are subjectively-motivated rent-seekers looking to pad their resumes and they do so by transient boosts in, say, profits - most infamously by sacrificing product quality (e.g. outsourcing) - leaving the future of the company poorer as they chase the golden parachute. Chipotle is a famous example of a found…

I think the MBAs are just the tool/symptom of the problem. The problem is Wall St, why do we need it? Why are companies so bothered about stock prices? Why do companies have to put a show for them? Let them learn the trade and understand the value that is offered by a business. Short-terms gains at the expense of long-term losses is a fact that has to controlled by the board of directors and the ridiculous salaries o…

Jobs was better on privacy than most. People wanted to take user data silently and Jobs’ objection is the source of asking for permissions. Apple’s premium feel relies on that walled garden approach.

Re: Ask HN: Why did you leave the tech industry?

#473
post #437
post #63

I had a ten year career mostly in product management at enterprise software startups, and I left last year to open a dog boarding business (which is a whole mess right now, but that's another story). For the most part I liked the companies I worked at (which tended to be ~50 people when I joined) and my coworkers. The problems were interesting, though largely not things I was especially passionate about (I spent a co…

> I had already started investing in some real estate on the side I have a few questions, if you don't mind. How did you get started with this? Is investing in real estate something you can do while being a salaried employee or do you need to do it full time? Also, what kind of investments were/are you making?

Funny you should ask - I actually wrote a short book about it: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M09FA5X.

I own two small apartment buildings in the Bay Area (seven apartments total). I honestly just saw interest rates were low and thought real estate sounded like a good way to take advantage of that. I didn't know much, so I just found an agent through my local Realtor association and started looking at buildings. From there it's not that complicated - you just build a pretty straightforward model of your income and expenses, estimate conservatively, and pay a price that'll make it profitable. Beyond that just use common sense and don't do things like buy in dangerous areas.

I employ a full time property manager, so I have been a full time employee for most of the time I've owned it.

Re: Ask HN: Why did you leave the tech industry?

#474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a lot of things that could be said here: 1) I switched from being a software engineer to a data scientist in 2010, in part because of the culture. I totally get not enjoying the culture, though I do recognize how much it varies from person to person and company to company, so I try not to stereotype. But on some level, I get it. 2) We're opposites in some way. I've been writing code since I was 8 years old,…

Well, don't paint with a broad brush. I love solving problems too, and I love learning new things. I too played with computers as a kid and my middle school friends and I built websites for fun. I wasn't exposed to real programming (beyond neat Javascript tricks) until CS class in high school. However, science has always been my #1 thing, and programming is my probably my #3. Interesting, but not the only thing I wan…

>the attitude that if I'm not always programming, I'm "less than" than other programmers seems oppressive to me.

Who says that? It's so backwards from everything I'm accustomed to in the bay area. (In the bay area I've done 10 years of data science and 5 years as a software engineer before that.) Maybe it's because I didn't go to universities out here and it's university culture? People at MIT can get very passionate about their projects.

I've had companies (many of them) advertise to me saying I should join them because they have a healthy 9 to 5 work culture. But what company doesn't? Maybe a young startup, but you sign up for that at that point.

Everyone I know who regularly works more than 40 hours a week (who isn't a CEO) is almost always because their boss asks for X quantity load of work done, which might be 50 hours of work, so they do the 50 hours instead of communicating they can't do that much within 40 hours. Sometimes it's because they're a junior and are afraid of not fitting in and are afraid of getting fired, but sometimes it's a senior who has their tech down, but not their communication skills down. It happens, and it's sad to see, because it almost always leads to burn out on their end. It's not a good thing.

I love what I do, but I do 40 hours a week. Want more? It better be a rare event (crunch times are a real thing in some industries) or you need to be paying me more, and I'm not cheap.

>So the solution for people like me is to pretend to be someone like you, who loves programming above all other things, and it's mildly exhausting.

I love programming, but it's just a tool. It's like saying you love hammering. It doesn't make a lot of sense when you take a step back. What I love is the projects I do. You mentioned hacking your tread mill, so it sounds like you do more tech hobby stuff after hours than most software engineers.

Frankly, I rarely do projects outside of work, despite loving what I do. Why? Because companies give me inspiration to do specific tasks that I love. Without working I have a hard time finding things to do. If I could find infinite things to do, I'd be a CEO, providing things for everyone else to do. The only people who truly don't turn off, end up being CEOs, not software engineers. (Unless they don't know how to capitalize, or some other edge case, of course.) So it's unrealistic to believe you have to be doing non-work tech to work in tech. That's just absurd.

Also, I can't say from country to country, but within the US software engineer culture, while it varies from company to company and team to team, is generally somewhat similar across the country. On the NYC side, working more than 40 hours a week is common (eg, quant work), where on the bay area side only working 40 hours a week and turning off (unless you're at a startup) is common.

Is it possible this has to do with too small of a sample size? It's easy to stereotype. We naturally do it unless we learn otherwise, sometimes through learning statistics, sometimes through other routes.

Re: Ask HN: Why did you leave the tech industry?

#475
post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a lot of things that could be said here: 1) I switched from being a software engineer to a data scientist in 2010, in part because of the culture. I totally get not enjoying the culture, though I do recognize how much it varies from person to person and company to company, so I try not to stereotype. But on some level, I get it. 2) We're opposites in some way. I've been writing code since I was 8 years old,…

> You're on ycombinator, the center of Bay Area tech culture Citation needed. I think YC users think they are the center of tech (or the universe?). What would be that actual proof that it was? Do we know how many users HN has? What % of VC actually spend time here? What % of meaningful founders actually spend time here? Ya the CEO of github will drop a post on a major thread concerning his company, but so what? Hone…

It could be trending away from that, but historically https://www.ycombinator.com/ is the center of bay area startup culture, and then those startups grew into bay area tech culture as a whole.

Ycombinator comes from Stanford which centers around creating CEOs, creating most of the companies in the bay area. Most non-yc bay area companies still have Stanford at its roots. I don't have a direct data point, but almost every company I've interviewed for in the last 10 years and have worked with, their CEO or CTO or some other c-suite "club" is strongly tied to Stanford and from that directly or indirectly tied to YC.

Re: Ask HN: Why did you leave the tech industry?

#476
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I honestly believe that if the nerds told them to fuck off and started spending their time working on things they think are relevant, the world would become much better quickly. This won't happen, I know. Most of the "creative nerds" I have encountered in this industry are arrogant, have grandiose beliefs about their own intelligence and have zero empathy for anybody who is not exactly like them. I don't think thin…

+1 for this. The "business" folk might be filling your day to day with features that only improve conversion rates which is soul draining, of course, but nothing feels worse than working on something interesting surrounded by these wannabe wozniak "nerds" that instill this unspoken aura of "youre too dumb to be in the room with me." THOSE are the people that i hate the most in this industry.

Interesting you used Wozniak as the model. I get the impression from everything I’ve read about him is that he is very forgiving of people less knowledgable/experienced than himself. I take your comment to be even more poignant in that light, since the people who might aspire to be more like him, are ignoring the value of his personable personailty.

Re: Ask HN: Why did you leave the tech industry?

#477
post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a lot of things that could be said here: 1) I switched from being a software engineer to a data scientist in 2010, in part because of the culture. I totally get not enjoying the culture, though I do recognize how much it varies from person to person and company to company, so I try not to stereotype. But on some level, I get it. 2) We're opposites in some way. I've been writing code since I was 8 years old,…

What do you need to learn to make the switch? I know SQL pretty well. I don't now a lot of stats, but I doubt its beyond me to learn.

It's a multifaceted question and has a multifaceted answer, unfortunately.

There is how to get into a data science job, and how to make that switch.

There is how to get into doing data science as a hobby or a skill/experience, and how to make that switch.

There is how did you make the switch to data science. That is, what is your story?

And there is the deeper dive, most people do not consider enough: "Will I like doing data science work?"

My story:

When I was a teen, I wrote a stock market bot that was pretty profitable. That may be a quant researcher job and skillset, but it is a kind of data science too, as data science is a research position, where creating models is part of the job spec, identical to a quant researcher.

So I got into it, out of hobby, not out of taking a class or reading a book, but by being infatuated with the plots I see in the stock market, seeing patterns everywhere. When I'm doing a 9 to 5 I have to put a timer on when I'm looking at plots, or I can easily spend days just taking in information. I just like it, a lot.

In 2010 I applied for a job as a software engineer, passed all the interviews, was going to do another SE gig, and then I was talking to a manager during an interview and I said something like, "With enough time and effort, nothing is impossible. That's what I love about programming." So, he threw a curve ball at me. He said something like, "We have a team of roughly 15 people classifying web sites, labeling if the site is porn, education, business, and so on. There are a little over 60 categories." This team worked on the web filter schools and dmvs all over the country paid a service for, to limit what websites people can go to.

I jumped on it, "I can automate that!" So he started a new team and put me on it. What did I do? I looked up how SEOs work and how Google's search engine worked. Certainly they were classifying websites in one way or another, so it was just a matter of research and figuring it out.

...in the end the project succeeded. What strongly surprised me at the time was how it ended up categorizing websites to a higher degree of accuracy than the people we were paying.

That's the non-business side of data science in a nutshell. It's figuring out how to do something often suspected or assumed to be impossible, and making it possible. It's not just researching how to do something, but using cutting edge research from published papers and often doing the next that no one has figured out yet.

Programming is a tool that automates thoughts. If you can figure it out you can put it into code. If it's a complex enough of a problem you can use ML to automate the writing parts of that algorithm you could write by hand. ML is often thought of as a way to generate a process, that can't be written by hand, and to some extent that is true, but only in the sense that it would take too long to write by hand. Eg, where writing by hand would need an if statement for each of the millions of hypothetical scenarios.

ML is also useful for giving insights. You have a hypothesis -- an idea of how to do a task -- and you run ML over it, and either it solves the problem, or it doesn't, and what it comes up with that is incorrect will always teach you something, so data science is often an iterative loop, where you put some ML in just to see how the data varies from your hypothesis giving better ideas in how to write a better model.

Sometimes someone will say data science is an analyst + software engineer, but that's not quite right. An analyst looks at data, plots it, organizes it, and then reports on their findings about what is to management. A data scientist looks at findings and applies predictive analytics to it, finding solutions to potential problems. Eg, "We'd like you predict future customer churn, and propose solutions that will eliminate this potential future customer churn, before it happens." This is done through identifying or classifying what the causes of customer churn are, then finding solutions to those causes (hypothesis), then writing some software that automatically enacts that solution. Then you can look at if that solution is working, and validate your hypothesis or invalidate and learn more of what is really going on. Hopefully that makes sense.

In summary, if there is a task that other software engineers can't figure out how to do but you can, regardless if you're using ML or not, it may be data science. (Keep in mind, software engineers can use ML, so while data scientists often use ML, ML is not data science.) The path from software engineering to data science is usually just that, taking what is deemed impossible by those around you and making it possible.

How to get into DS as a career: As a software engineer, your best bet is to transfer internally. It's rare for a company to higher a fresh data scientist who previously was a software engineer. Data scientists can help all companies, from startups to large companies, so you don't have to be at the "right" company to switch, you just have to find a problem that could benefit the company, advertise your hypothetical solution to management, and start doing it. Data scientists are the ones finding projects to benefit the company, and doing it. They're usually not being given projects from management like software engineers are, though ofc they can be given projects too. Keep in mind: I'm a lead data scientist, and my first data science roll I ended up leading a data science team, so my views are biased towards my own experience.

Re: Ask HN: Why did you leave the tech industry?

#478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you're at $500k/yr, losing <$50k/yr isn't really that big of a deal.

Very very few people earn $500k/yr at FAANG

Perhaps very few make that year after year, but that's a totally achievable total compensation anywhere in the top half of the individual-contributor range if they get two good evals in one year. I work at one of those companies, and I'm sure I talk every day with people who have hit that level at least once.

Re: Ask HN: Why did you leave the tech industry?

#479
post #41

I left (mostly) when tech became a tool for greed and scummery. Was asked too many times to participate in completely legal yet morally abhorrent actions. Also saw that programmers were starting to be treated like factory workers where attendance and metrics like keystrokes per minute were more important than good well written and documented code. The final straw however was "move fast and break things". Basically pu…

> The final straw however was "move fast and break things". Basically pump out change for the sake of change and let the end user do quality control. The worst part is how this leads to more on-call and an increase in working off-hours.

Oh, exactly this! First I get lectured about how delivering a solution fast is more important than getting the technical details right... and then I get assigned for on-call duty. Because "move fast" means someone else gets a bonus, and "break things" means I have to fix the bugs over the weekend.

Re: Ask HN: Why did you leave the tech industry?

#480

I worked in the industry for over 10 years and I have a PhD in Computer Science. In my last job I felt miserable from Day 1. I had reached a point where coding brought me no joy. In all of my job, at the end of the day, I was serving ads to users. I was also an average developer and part of that is because I never found the motivation to keep improving. I was only so much interested in getting things done and never i…

Did you have to do any training for that? I’ve been contemplating leaving tech and have always been interesting in your area.

I am avid movie buff. For training, I would highly recommend reading Story by Robert McKee and look up information on how to do script coverage. There are plenty of information on that. I am happy to answer in more detail through email. saby83 at gmail
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