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Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

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Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but in US most of the employment is at will. In practical terms, they can fire you for any or no reason at all. Yes, employment at-will allows both the employer and employee to terminate employment at anytime without cause. However, it seems pretty clear Amazon did not terminate these employees without cause...you can argue the termination was for violation of a company policy all you want (Amazon certainly will), b…

There are no constitutionally protected rights to disparage, or even just talk negatively about, anyone you want. The constitution has nothing to do with this case at all.

There's a fundamental difference between arbitrary disparagement and making public your genuine concerns about poor working conditions within the company.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#312
post #73

What exactly does a UX designer know about the working conditions of an Amazon warehouse that they haven't simply read online like the rest of us anyway?

What does that have to do with anything?

Context.

Criticizing your employer when you're not in a position to actually know what's going on, goes pretty far in proving a comment is disparaging.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uhh, I don't want to be Amazon defender, but in US most of the employment is at will. In practical terms, they can fire you for any or no reason at all. There are practicalities that come into play that have to do with unemployment insurance and whatnot, but company policy violation is a defensible 'cause' for firing. I am not a lawyer nor am I condoning this, but them is the facts. edit: added play

I think people are outraged not because it's illegal, but because it's unconscionable. I think the general understanding is people shouldn't have outside-work activities be held against them, maybe it's time for the law to catch up. It's pretty easy to come up with a lot of absurd and "legal" at-will policies (e.g. we'll fire anybody who watches porn)

> we'll fire anybody who watches porn

That's not particularly non-sensical, at all. That's a sexual harassment lawsuit waiting to happen.

"We'll fire anybody who plays a game" would qualify as "absurd".

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>“meaningful negotiation” doesn’t mean anything to me. You've already defined it with "The employee should negotiate “fireable offenses” into his contract." I don't know of a single employer that would be interested in hiring someone who insisted on including a list of nonfirable offenses which included making public statements which paint the company in a bad light. That specific item we're talking about is complete…

> I don't know of a single employer that would be interested in hiring someone who insisted on including a list of nonfirable offenses which included making public statements which paint the company in a bad light. 1. Work for a company that you don’t feel the need to publicly criticize. 2. Start your own company. 3. Increase your market value thru hard work to improve your negotiating position. > There are many more…

Recall that your initial assertion was that "The employee should negotiate “fireable offenses” into his contract." I'm not claiming that this particular "freedom" to openly criticize your employer deserves government intervention, but I really don't see any of your proposed solutions as generally viable. Negotiating that into a contract is not something a significant number of people can do.

>1. Work for a company that you don’t feel the need to publicly criticize.

Absolutely, in an ideal world everyone should. But many people do not and switching jobs can be difficult, particularly for people outside the tech bubble that HN exists in.

>2. Start your own company.

Not everyone can do that, and the skills required to start and run a successful company are almost completely orthogonal to those most people develop in their careers.

>3. Increase your market value thru hard work to improve your negotiating position.

There's a fixed number of people that can be at the top of any market (in proportion to market size), this will only work for a handful of people. It's not a general solution.

>I don’t want to make assumptions. Please describe forms of coercion other than (threats of) physical violence.

Coercion is the opposite of freedom, and in general coercion describes a party "forcing" another party to act in some way contrary to their preference either by force, implied force, or some form of a threat. As an example, a child could be coerced into cleaning their room by their parent shutting down the wifi until the chores were done.

>>In this case there technically _is_ coercion by men with guns, albeit a degree or two removed. People need money to keep a roof over their head, and they need jobs to receive that money. >A man’s need for food does not override my natural property rights. He must use his mind to productively participate in commerce. If he does not, he will perish.

Are you trying to say that people who don't productively use their minds to participate in society deserve to die? How exactly would a hypothetical nonpunishable disparagement clause in an employment contract affect your "natural property rights" in any way?

>>My point here is that there are certain things which the invisible hand of the free market is unable to touch due to the dynamics of the market. That is, in my and many other people's opinion, where the government needs to step in and force the market to make decisions it would be otherwise unwilling to do. This has already been necessary many times before in American history, such as with the ending of slavery, child labor, and the introduction of minimum wage laws. In all of these cases government intervention was necessary to reduce human suffering and raise people's quality of life. Yes, some "market value" was lost in the process but to people with empathy that was a completely worthwhile trade.

>From a consequentialist framework: I suspect the government’s cure will be worse than the disease.

Do you think that the "government's cure" of ending slavery has left people worse off? Are children worse off now that they're required to stay in schools instead of working in mines or textile mills?

Even in the case of this hypothetical nonpunishable disparagement clause, how exactly would it leave people worse off?

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon isn’t threatening the men with guns, so their natural right to free speech isn’t violated.

So if someone criticizes the government, and it responds by saying "We're no longer going to enforce laws protecting this person; anyone who wants to burglarize their home, or rob or kill them, feel free to do so.", that doesn't qualify as violation of free speech as long as the government is not actively initiating or assisting such attacks? (Genuine question; I obviously don't agree, but I'm curious as to what mora…

Government ought to have a force monopoly.

Government ought to be “small” (functionally and structurally limited).

Government ought to defend the natural rights of its citizens from physical force initiated by criminals and international aggressors.

A government that does not fulfill these duties is evil. The Constitution clearly prevents the government from using guns to break my free speech. Does it also require the government to use its guns to protect my free speech from criminals? Ethically, this is the government’s duty. If the government isn’t doing this, it lacks a legitimate purpose.

Private entities do not have a duty to protect man’s natural rights. But, it is immoral for them to violate a man’s natural rights. Amazon didn’t violate anyone’s natural rights by cancelling a private contract because of public comments.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#316
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What a strange statement. "We support their right to criticize their working conditions, only actually we don't at all" Without seeing the actual policy, my guess is that "criticizing" is something employees can do internally within the company. However, you can't post public tweets about it. In other words, "don't air dirty laundry" . This type of distinction is very common in typical employee policies. Likewise, i…

Uh great... yeah just walk right into the CEO's office and tell them what's wrong... 0% chance of that coming back to affect your career....

The best version I remember hearing about is a janitor pitching the idea of Flaming Hot Cheetos:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20227175

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/02/2...

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#317
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience those CEO's are extremely rare ... don't know how common my experience has been.

I feel like its a myth... no one i know works in a place where anyone can walk into the CEOs office, be brutally honest and not have some time of blowback in one way or another(or really any level). All those who tried have not faired well.

I was booted out of my first employer within 90 days of stepping into the company's "open-door CEO" office to bring up the subject of scheduling time with my boss (directly reporting to the CEO) to discuss a job promotion. My boss was the first one who brought it up and I took the initiative. Even typing this right now I feel dumb. But I had no idea how sensitive people are with retaining their status in an artificial hierarchy. I do now!

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, man should never coerce man. The coercer’s group affiliation and reasons are irrelevant. I define coercion as initiating physical violence against another man. * And I am suspicious of market cartels (wage collusion, price fixing, labor unions, etc), but as they are freely made contracts between private individuals I can’t in good conscience support government intervention. (I heavily edited this message)

> I define coercion as initiating physical violence against another man. That seems oddly narrow. As a contrived example (I like stress-testing ethical intuitions) would you consider barricading the doors and windows of someone's home and waiting for them to starve to death to qualify as physical violence? (Assume for the sake of argument that noone else interferes with this, perhaps because you're in a isolated rura…

> That seems oddly narrow. As a contrived example (I like stress-testing ethical intuitions) would you consider barricading the doors and windows of someone's home and waiting for them to starve to death to qualify as physical violence?

Yes, the barricader has “initiated force” because “man” owns his body and his possessions. Vandalizing the possessions is analogous to assaulting the body. (My language is clumsy.)

> I'll also perfunctorially object to terms like "man" or "human", but I doubt that's a contextually relevant distinction, given linguistic history and the lack of any other sapient species respectively.)

Noted.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#319
post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't gauge the real.world based on Hacker News. 99% of keyboard warriors will sign 250k USD+ total comp offers in a jiffy.

The way I see it, in the right city somebody with our skillset can step outside and trip over an offer with a very comfortable salary. In that context, I don't think there's much excuse for going out and choosing to make the world a worse place, even if you'd get paid 2x that very comfortable salary.

People always want more.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#320
post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way I see it, in the right city somebody with our skillset can step outside and trip over an offer with a very comfortable salary. In that context, I don't think there's much excuse for going out and choosing to make the world a worse place, even if you'd get paid 2x that very comfortable salary.

People always want more.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just saying it's morally unjustifiable.
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