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Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

reuters.com

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Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#221

Post by ardy42 »

Aloha wrote: post #89
ghshephard wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to engage in ageism, but speaking from the benefit of having the benefit of being younger, and older, I can say that when I was younger, I was blissfully unaware of the huge list of things that would result in a person's employment ending, that I thought was absolutely reasonable for one to do. And maybe it was reasonable for one to do. But it also ended one's employment. I think the GP was mostly just trying to…

I think all of us learned these lessons the hard way, what's amazing is how much resistance I've encountered when I try to share this wisdom with folks in their early 20's. I guess the old adage is true, people like to learn their own lessons.

>>> In general, trash talking one's employer in public is usually inversely proportional to the longevity of one's employment with said employer.

> I think all of us learned these lessons the hard way, what's amazing is how much resistance I've encountered when I try to share this wisdom with folks in their early 20's. I guess the old adage is true, people like to learn their own lessons.

I think it's arguable the lesson you're referring too is not "wisdom," but rather an obvious form of status-quo acceptance. I don't think just "accept the status quo" would be counted as wisdom by many. The status quo used to include many awful things that are now rightly regarded with horror (for instance, executing someone for criticizing the king), and there are many things we accept now that will be regarded with similar horror in the future.

I'd bet money that the resistance you're encountering is moral rejection. You argue that something is true but acceptable. Your interlocutors also understand that thing to be true but they see it as unacceptable. And frankly, they're right: criticizing working conditions is always acceptable (even if they're not your working conditions, but those of your colleagues), and the people who do so need strong productions against reprisals by their employers. That's how working conditions are improved.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#222

Post by madamelic »

totalZero wrote: post #206
cirno wrote: post #156

> “We support every employee’s right to criticize their employer’s working conditions,” a spokesperson said, “but that does not come with blanket immunity against any and all internal policies.” What a strange statement. "We support their right to criticize their working conditions, only actually we don't at all"

It doesn't seem politically smart to me for Amazon to so blatantly open itself up to state and federal investigation, at a time when the president of the United States hates their leadership's guts and the Democratic Party is on a massive pro-workers kick. Amazon has spent billions trying to replace the human component of its distribution. It would utterly fall apart if warehouse workers stop working. What's wrong wi…

>reducing the throughput a little bit so that people don't have to work in close proximity to each other?

The funny part is they already are, for non-essential items.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#223

Post by mav3rick »

mason55 wrote: post #192
mav3rick wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this is an attack on H1bs. Many H1Bs have multiple offers from FAANGS at market rate. Whatever woe you have in your life, please stop blaming immigrants for it.

Just because many H1B's have good job offers doesn't ALSO mean there is rampant H1B abuse happening. Both things can be true and the blame for the latter should be placed on the companies abusing the H1B process and the US government for not doing something about it. I'm all for open borders and immigration. The H1B problem right now is the worst of both worlds though. You have selectively restrictive immigration whi…

Do you really think H1B abuse is the pressing problem of our times ? Also, the companies that abuse these clearly have effective lobbying. Ask your senators to not be corrupt, voice your opinion with your vote. Many a times it's the H1Bs that get the abuse along with barely veiled racist attacks.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#224

Post by totalZero »

drngdds wrote: post #153

It will never cease to amaze me that people (outside the media, politics, etc.) use their real name to post controversial things on social media, especially about their own employer.

It's almost as surprising as that time that John Hancock used his real name to sign a controversial letter to his own king.

Putting your name, reputation, and economic security on the line -- especially in a world where anonymity is easy -- is a sign of backbone and reinforces the message that you are delivering.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#225

Post by aj_g »

_bxg1 wrote: post #193

A few months ago I was in the job market and got a call from a recruiter at Amazon. I flatly told them that I wasn't interested in working for Amazon on ethical grounds. At the time it was purely out of principle, but apparently it was a good decision for my self-interest as well. I wonder how long they can keep this stuff up before they start seriously damaging their desirability as a workplace, the way Facebook has…

Props to you.

I am incredibly far away from the world of SV/FAANG, so tell me, is FB really becoming a less desirable place to work? It seems to me like it's a pretty small minority of people that would refuse a $1XX,000 paycheck on grounds of being a ethically dubious snowflake in the avalanche that is Facebook.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#226

Post by lnsru »

alexandercrohde wrote: post #196
jasode wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What a strange statement. "We support their right to criticize their working conditions, only actually we don't at all" Without seeing the actual policy, my guess is that "criticizing" is something employees can do internally within the company. However, you can't post public tweets about it. In other words, "don't air dirty laundry" . This type of distinction is very common in typical employee policies. Likewise, i…

Uh great... yeah just walk right into the CEO's office and tell them what's wrong... 0% chance of that coming back to affect your career....

Did exactly this! Just it wasn’t CEO, only a Vice President. I mentioned bugs and lack of testing in a polite way, also offered how test system could be designed to automate testing. There was a committee created to do inspection of my code and to analyze, why I do so many bugs. I’ll never tell anybody, how to operate better after this “incident”. The months were hell and I am pretty sure, I’ll be fired during next downsizing round.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#227

Post by _bxg1 »

aj_g wrote: post #225
_bxg1 wrote: post #193

A few months ago I was in the job market and got a call from a recruiter at Amazon. I flatly told them that I wasn't interested in working for Amazon on ethical grounds. At the time it was purely out of principle, but apparently it was a good decision for my self-interest as well. I wonder how long they can keep this stuff up before they start seriously damaging their desirability as a workplace, the way Facebook has…

Props to you. I am incredibly far away from the world of SV/FAANG, so tell me, is FB really becoming a less desirable place to work? It seems to me like it's a pretty small minority of people that would refuse a $1XX,000 paycheck on grounds of being a ethically dubious snowflake in the avalanche that is Facebook.

I think the effect is small, but real. If nothing else it gives the comparable FAANGs an edge. That said I'm not in The Valley and don't know anybody who works at a FAANG.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#228

Post by mav3rick »

aj_g wrote: post #225
_bxg1 wrote: post #193

A few months ago I was in the job market and got a call from a recruiter at Amazon. I flatly told them that I wasn't interested in working for Amazon on ethical grounds. At the time it was purely out of principle, but apparently it was a good decision for my self-interest as well. I wonder how long they can keep this stuff up before they start seriously damaging their desirability as a workplace, the way Facebook has…

Props to you. I am incredibly far away from the world of SV/FAANG, so tell me, is FB really becoming a less desirable place to work? It seems to me like it's a pretty small minority of people that would refuse a $1XX,000 paycheck on grounds of being a ethically dubious snowflake in the avalanche that is Facebook.

Don't gauge the real.world based on Hacker News. 99% of keyboard warriors will sign 250k USD+ total comp offers in a jiffy.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#229

Post by burrows »

a1369209993 wrote: post #194
burrows wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My view is that free men should contract without (fear of) government coercion. What is your view?

My view is that free people should contract without (fear of) government or corporate [0] coercion. 0: or religeous, or familial, or any other source.

I agree, man should never coerce man. The coercer’s group affiliation and reasons are irrelevant.

I define coercion as initiating physical violence against another man.

* And I am suspicious of market cartels (wage collusion, price fixing, labor unions, etc), but as they are freely made contracts between private individuals I can’t in good conscience support government intervention.

(I heavily edited this message)

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#230

Post by triceratops »

nomel wrote: post #205
graedus wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine framing your employer as "the hand that feeds you", as if it is generously giving you a gift by paying you your salary in exchange for your labor. Here is a different view: don't expose your most vulnerable and precarious employees to a deadly virus by failing to take the necessary precautions to protect them while they keep your company running.

I'm looking at your first sentence in isolation. > Imagine framing your employer as "the hand that feeds you", as if it is generously giving you a gift by paying you your salary in exchange for your labor. What is your perspective on this? Are you self employed, providing some sort of raw material/product? How is your food, housing, and fun paid for? Have you ever been laid off or otherwise without work? If so, where…

I think it's the sentiment that's objectionable. Your employer isn't a feudal lord providing sustenance to you out of noblesse oblige. It's a corporation with whom you have a business relationship - you provide skills and they compensate you for them. If you withdrew your labor from them, the cost of hiring labor increases ever so slightly for them due to the shrinking of the labor pool. It may be an asymmetrical relationship but it's not built on charity in either direction.
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