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The myth of the developer that can't code

neilwithdata.com

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Re: The myth of the developer that can't code

#71
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's some "accredited" credentials you can get in software development - I've got one for AWS, for example - but you can get most of those via a multiple choice questionnaire. Having the certification itself means nothing to me; sure, I know in theory how to set up some AWS services, but I have barely any experience in it, and I wouldn't dare to apply to an AWS position because I couldn't actually do it from day 0…

"I went job hunting last year, and what I was really looking forward is technical interviews - PLEASE just challenge me, allow me to show you my work instead of my CV" I totally agree. I hate the irony of having a highly technical job but then needing some decent writing skills to put together a CV that isn't just a list of employers, dates and acronyms.

Why shouldn’t you have decent writing skills? There are so many highly skilled developers who get frustrated because their ideas aren’t taken seriously because they don’t communicate well and don’t have any persuasive capabilities. My career was stuck in neutral for a decade before I started working on my interpersonal skills and learned how to navigate corporate politics.

Re: The myth of the developer that can't code

#72

Best technical interview I had (on the interviewee side) had me do a very simple coding exercise at home - it took maybe 4 to 6 hours max so could easily be done during lunch breaks at your current job. Once you submitted the exercise and went to on-site interview you sat with another engineer and they asked you to make some basic changes there and then. I liked this approach: you could take your time working at home…

I live in a major metropolitan city in the US that is not on the west coast. Most jobs are bog standard software as a service CRUD/bespoked internal system roles. They all pay about the same at the same level of experience - maybe there is a $20K variance but you can usually negotiate that. Also, senior engineers come on the market infrequently and there are many open reqs (I’m speaking pre-Covid). Meaning that historically (over two decades) its never taken me more than a month to go from looking for a job to offer. Most interviews in my pure software engineering roles have involved soft skills questions, explaining past projects, sometimes standard multiple choice prescribing tests and occasionally simple on site at the computer coding tests.

All that to say if I both have a job and have two or three companies vying for me at about the same salary - I’m no special snowflake. I’ve just done a lot of targeted resume driven development and have built a strong network - why would I do a take home test?

I’ve scheduled six phone screens with different companies in one day.

My record for looking for a job, to having an offer is four days. I called an external recruiter on Monday, had a phone screen on Wednesday, in person Thursday morning and offer that evening. It was for a job at a recently acquired subsidiary of what was then a Fortune 10 company.

Re: The myth of the developer that can't code

#73

Several times in my career I have worked with people in software developer roles who could not write basic code. This was not a situation of mistaken title, they were in a position where they were expected to write code and could not. In several cases, they struggled to operate Visual Studio in spite of claiming to be a proficient .NET developer. Non-technical management could not tell the difference or nepotism was…

> they struggled to operate Visual Studio in spite of claiming to be a proficient .NET developer Just out of curiosity: were these junior devs? Were they maybe more proficient in other language/IDE? Couldn't better mentoring/on-job training help - rather than just to "weed them out"? I might be naive but (and I have also been on leading positions) I still believe that if it seems that somebody "cannot code" it (most…

From a company’s perspective, why spend time mentoring juniors and doing on the job training - both of which takes time away from your senior resources - instead of just hiring someone else who can hit the ground running? Yes I realize someone has to train them, but you might as well let someone else do it and poach them once they have experience and they are looking for another job.

Inevitable as they gain experience at the other company, their market value will go up quicker than their HR policy will allow for raises (salary compression) and you can still offer them slightly below market rates and they will be glad to take it because they don’t know their worth and it’s a big jump for them. They probably don’t know how to negotiate either.

I’m not making a value judgement. This is just the world we live in.

Re: The myth of the developer that can't code

#74
post #32
post #21

Accountants, Lawyers, and Surveyors have credentialling bodies that train, test and monitor performance. Accountants don't need to show they are qualified in interview because they have the letters ACA, ACCA, CEMA or whatever that they can clearly point to. Lawyers and Surveyors similarly have profession bodies that handle qualification. Software engineering is not uniquely broken but it is broken, but the author jum…

Software has a couple of unique problems which prevent those from working: - the state of the art is both extremely diverse and rapidly moving, so any credential system would run the risk of being too specific and easily out of date. Very few are respected and most existing ones are tied to particular products. Possibly the only set of those that is respected is the Cisco ones. - most of our work is (a) tightly inter…

> the state of the art is both extremely diverse and rapidly moving

I blame this on the tendency to reinvent the wheel instead of fixing the existing one, and the tendency to chase the last new shiny thing of the month.

Re: The myth of the developer that can't code

#75
post #63
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I usually try to detect things like: "do you know lists and dictionaries?". Also very basic abstraction design and basic communication skills. This works well with juniors because we mostly code business logic. It does not work at all when trying to recruit a senior. I am still clueless about that. I have at least two recent cases in mind of a senior hire that lead to catastrophic results. People that new how to pres…

general developer: I don't know why people want to find out if a person can code? ... I assume that a person can code ...(if not you will see very soon) I mean it's not about writing "hello world". If the person is not dumb, you won't find out in an interview if someone can really code. (repos are much better for that, but can be deceiving) "We have a 3 month probation period and if something is really not true it wi…

In my extremely limited experience in hiring (very few people), I made multiple mistakes. One of the thing I discovered (we were hiring a junior and both of us gave approval) was that you can find a person who can solve problems but can't actually code (there were a lot of red flags that we ignored on purpose I guess).

It isn't until I read your answer that I realized this: we were both convinced because the guy was smart, clearly, however he didn't know enough of the technology we were using to develop anything meaningful with it. While when hiring a senior developer, it's possible that they can pick-up a new language or framework very fast, this is highly unlikely with a junior (this is not something I have in numbers, just thought).

The real side of the problem is that is very hard to figure out if someone will be good with everything that's not "oh, you can code". It's not well defined in the industry, so there is no objective methodology to evaluate the skills of a person. As a developer, you can usually recognize if someone can code, but determining if they are sloppy, care for design, that's a totally different thing: you need to work with them to figure that out, this is probably why an interview is not enough.

Re: The myth of the developer that can't code

#76

[Warning unempathetic post] The author needs to take off the "happy town" rose-tinted sunglasses. Like any profession, software development requires competence. Empathy and understanding are not a driving factor. Being able to produce a maintainable solution for a business problem and being able to communicate that solution to others is what is important. If what he says is true, then why aren't Google et al. hiring…

You're missing the point. The article is commenting on how every company is using FAANG practices even when it doesn't apply to them.

Quote: "Because make no mistake, that technical interview - that one-shot coding test we do. That's it. If in the heat of the moment you make a mistake or don't pass, absolutely nothing else matters. FAANG (and sadly everyone else who has copied their half-assed hiring practices) will not hire you. Nothing overrides it: you could be a Nobel laureate and it wouldn't make one iota of difference."

> Being able to produce a maintainable solution for a business problem and being able to communicate that solution to others is what is important. > > If what he says is true, then why aren't Google et al. hiring mediocre developers?

FAANG interview questions do not constitute a "maintainable solution for a business problem" for most businesses. Unlike the author, I'm more willing to give FAANG the benefit of the doubt in their hiring practices but even then I'd give a very generous guess that only something like 20% of FAANG employees actually use the same skills in the interview in their everyday work.

Sure, Google might be able to save money if an engineer can come up with a way to reverse-index a volume of Britannica with a memory constraint of 4MB but other businesses won't if only for the fact that they don't have the organizational infrastructure (QA pipeline, canary version rollout, etc.) to properly verify the correctness of such hackery nor sufficient business clout to cushion possible outages that come with the territory of building your own libraries. For most businesses, hiring an engineer experienced with Elasticsearch would provide them with the business value they are looking for. Unfortunately, said engineer who spent the last 4 months debugging their ES cluster's split brain problems did his whiteboard interview in a Python-like pseudocode and couldn't handle memory swapping properly. So it was an unanimous no.

> If you are in a role where you are not doing coding day to day, then you need to evaluate that role and ask yourself, is code still right for me?

I used to be in this "code everyday" mentality but I realized that a better mindset is to "solve problems/puzzles everyday". Someone who works on yet-another-CRUD-app on a daily basis is definitely coding everyday but is this activity leading to growth? On the other end of the spectrum we have someone who solves ICPC World Finals problems in that 20 minutes they have waiting for breakfast to be served; honestly more impressive than the CRUD guy hands down but consider that:

- beyond something linear like lists, stacks, queues, there is very little opportunity to build a data structure class on your own. I've found my data structures knowledge useful in _reasoning about_ (not implementing) data structures other people wrote: the DOM is a tree, DB tables are trees, regexes are graphs, indices are look-up tables and/or hashes.

- I've had to work with DP in my day job once and only once so far (out of 8 years working) and that was a very special circumstance at that. And, guess what, DP didn't really save the business in that situation. Communicating and cooperating with the non-engineering departments did.

- Not to mention that sometimes life is just yak-shaving, as the article points out. I've made PRs with nothing but logs only so that three days later I can PR a one-line change (four, thanks to the linter) that would fix a performance problem I tracked down for three weeks. Or soldier through Jenkins and Maven so you can finally migrate your outdated CI pipeline.

Re: The myth of the developer that can't code

#79

What's not a myth is the person applying for a job as a developer that can't code. There are tons of people that apply for jobs as programmers that can barely write two lines of working code. They can't read code, they get weirdly confused when writing a simple loop, just total incompetents in every respect. I'm not saying you have to be able to pass a FAANG technical screen or you are crap, I'm just saying there are…

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