The myth of the developer that can't code • Hacker News Board

Re: The myth of the developer that can't code

#11

Post by saagarjha » Tue, Apr 14, 2020, 7:27 AM UTC

nsainsbury wrote: post #9

gregdoesit wrote: post #5

This article is full of opinions, and brings no facts to the table. The author does not mention his experience interviewing or hiring people, and the whole piece reads more like a rant. > When an accountant is in an interview, they're not asked to multiply on-the-spot in their head what 485 x 761 equals because "you have to be good at math to be an accountant" This is an ignorant statement. Accountats don't have to m…

The article is a follow-up to a previous post which I linked to in the leading sentence. > The author does not mention his experience interviewing or hiring people From the previous article: "I've been a software developer now for around 15 years. In that time, I've been a day-to-day developer, run my own successful software business, was co-founder at a VC funded startup, and I've had to hire and manage developers."…

I know a lot of really smart people who would score somewhat poorly on those.

Re: The myth of the developer that can't code

#12

Post by gherkinnn » Tue, Apr 14, 2020, 7:36 AM UTC

nsainsbury wrote: post #9

gregdoesit wrote: post #5

This article is full of opinions, and brings no facts to the table. The author does not mention his experience interviewing or hiring people, and the whole piece reads more like a rant. > When an accountant is in an interview, they're not asked to multiply on-the-spot in their head what 485 x 761 equals because "you have to be good at math to be an accountant" This is an ignorant statement. Accountats don't have to m…

The article is a follow-up to a previous post which I linked to in the leading sentence. > The author does not mention his experience interviewing or hiring people From the previous article: "I've been a software developer now for around 15 years. In that time, I've been a day-to-day developer, run my own successful software business, was co-founder at a VC funded startup, and I've had to hire and manage developers."…

> "Why can't you look at a developer's portfolio, education, projects they've built, GitHub repo, talk with past employers, check references...and from that make an informed hiring decision?"

I have no Github, portfolio, nor education. My previous companies have a bad engineering culture. So they’ll give me good references, since they don’t know any better.

I have trouble writing a fizz buzz and yet that system could have me hired.

Re: The myth of the developer that can't code

#13

Post by peschu » Tue, Apr 14, 2020, 7:37 AM UTC

sparsely wrote: post #6

gregdoesit wrote: post #5

This article is full of opinions, and brings no facts to the table. The author does not mention his experience interviewing or hiring people, and the whole piece reads more like a rant. > When an accountant is in an interview, they're not asked to multiply on-the-spot in their head what 485 x 761 equals because "you have to be good at math to be an accountant" This is an ignorant statement. Accountats don't have to m…

Recruitment for accountants etc often includes a technical skills component, I don't know why he thinks it doesn't.

I used to work as a finance controller and I really never had to show a technical skill in an interview... And never saw it/heard from colleagues in finance, maybe in international accounting(which is more rule/law based) they ask if you know some stuff about this and that but nothing serious...

Re: The myth of the developer that can't code

#14

Post by seanmcdirmid » Tue, Apr 14, 2020, 7:50 AM UTC

gregdoesit wrote: post #5

This article is full of opinions, and brings no facts to the table. The author does not mention his experience interviewing or hiring people, and the whole piece reads more like a rant. > When an accountant is in an interview, they're not asked to multiply on-the-spot in their head what 485 x 761 equals because "you have to be good at math to be an accountant" This is an ignorant statement. Accountats don't have to m…

The coding tests in many places no longer test coding. They test algorithms, dynamic programming, or how to deal with ambiguity for an incredibly under specified problem. They are useful in weeding out 80% of the candidates who are clueless, but they don’t provide much reliable distinguishing signal for the 20% that remain. The coding interview isn’t going to tell you the difference between a junior or senior dev. Heck, given that universities prep kids these days for google style leetcode interviews while a senior dev lacks the time for full time prep, junior devs are likely to do better on it.

Re: The myth of the developer that can't code

#15

Post by c3534l » Tue, Apr 14, 2020, 7:54 AM UTC

greenyoda wrote: post #2

> But I suspect there are no more developers that cannot code than there are lawyers that don't know the law... I suspect that's wrong. To get a job practicing law, someone generally needs to have passed their state's bar exam. Similarly for other licensed professions like doctors, CPAs, civil engineers, etc. But anyone can legally call themselves a software developer.

And if you want to be a firefighter, you have to pass fitness tests and climb ladders and stuff. If you want to be an actor or musician, you have to audition. The employer wants to know what you know. I guess maybe some people think of these these tests as pass/fail where if you forget a semicolon you "failed" the whiteboard interview. Any job where you don't have a degree or professional certification guaranteeing a bare minimum of knowledge will ask you to demonstrate your abilities and what you know. The fact that you don't do that in some professions is more of an indication of how hard it is to test without a comprehensive knowledge-based examination. Software development is not unique. If you say you're qualified for the job, you have to demonstrate it somehow.

Re: The myth of the developer that can't code

#16

Post by Adiqq » Tue, Apr 14, 2020, 7:54 AM UTC

Personally I agree with idea. Software development and IT nowadays is complex. Do you really think that whiteboard interview can truly check anything? It will check if you can memorize definitions and patterns for solving tricky questions and that's it. That might work for some type of people, however I work poorly under such stress, my mind goes blank and I can't remember simplest definitions. I don't want to work for FAANG, I'm not math genius, I don't specialize in theoretical CS. I want to collect requirements, look for solution (often with help of the internet) and provide good enough solution that solves problem at hand. Currently I work in DevOps. I can easily answer most questions from my team and help troubleshoot issues at different areas. Should I never work in IT, because on some interview, my mind goes blank and I struggle with question that can be easily answered by CS student?

Re: The myth of the developer that can't code

#17

Post by seanmcdirmid » Tue, Apr 14, 2020, 7:54 AM UTC

meritt wrote: post #8

I know these feel-good anti-whiteboard blog posts are in vogue right now, but the harsh reality is we're entering a recession. If you refuse to do whiteboard interviews, or complain about employers who want you to work hard, or only looking for jobs that'll let you unnecessarily rewrite their stack in Rust on k8s, or feel that FizzBuzz is beneath you: you're gonna be in for a rough couple years.

I don’t feel like fizzbuz is beneath me, but Alien Dictionary is annoying the 10th time you are given it. Thankfully I got an offer from Google a couple of weeks ago, but I did spend way too much time doing interview prep.

Re: The myth of the developer that can't code

#18

Post by santoshalper » Tue, Apr 14, 2020, 7:56 AM UTC

Several times in my career I have worked with people in software developer roles who could not write basic code. This was not a situation of mistaken title, they were in a position where they were expected to write code and could not. In several cases, they struggled to operate Visual Studio in spite of claiming to be a proficient .NET developer. Non-technical management could not tell the difference or nepotism was involved. In each case, it took months to weed them out while other developers had to shoulder their work.

I am now in a position where I lead an organization that hires hundreds of software engineers every year. We start our interview process with take at home coding tests as a first line screening. These tests are not hard (I am no longer a day to day developer, they are not hard even for me) and of course you can always go to Stack Overflow. ~20% of our candidates fail them routinely. I am glad we are not wasting time interviewing them.

Those are facts. There are no facts in the article. Until this industry deals with its fraud problem and certifies engineers like other fields, technical testing is here to stay.

Re: The myth of the developer that can't code

#19

Post by zimpenfish » Tue, Apr 14, 2020, 7:58 AM UTC

gregdoesit wrote: post #5

This article is full of opinions, and brings no facts to the table. The author does not mention his experience interviewing or hiring people, and the whole piece reads more like a rant. > When an accountant is in an interview, they're not asked to multiply on-the-spot in their head what 485 x 761 equals because "you have to be good at math to be an accountant" This is an ignorant statement. Accountats don't have to m…

> The author does not mention his experience interviewing or hiring people

"Most recently I was the CTO of RateIt where I probably interviewed over 100 developers."

Re: The myth of the developer that can't code

#20

Post by zimpenfish » Tue, Apr 14, 2020, 8:01 AM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #14

gregdoesit wrote: post #5

This article is full of opinions, and brings no facts to the table. The author does not mention his experience interviewing or hiring people, and the whole piece reads more like a rant. > When an accountant is in an interview, they're not asked to multiply on-the-spot in their head what 485 x 761 equals because "you have to be good at math to be an accountant" This is an ignorant statement. Accountats don't have to m…

The coding tests in many places no longer test coding. They test algorithms, dynamic programming, or how to deal with ambiguity for an incredibly under specified problem. They are useful in weeding out 80% of the candidates who are clueless, but they don’t provide much reliable distinguishing signal for the 20% that remain. The coding interview isn’t going to tell you the difference between a junior or senior dev. He…

> They test algorithms, dynamic programming, or how to deal with ambiguity for an incredibly under specified problem.

I've been doing this for 25 years now and I've never had to implement an algorithm[1] from scratch or do any dynamic programming. I'm not entirely sure I'd consider myself "clueless" because of that.

[1] In the traditional computing sense of the word