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Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

reuters.com

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Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#131

Post by burkaman »

Aloha wrote: post #89
ghshephard wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to engage in ageism, but speaking from the benefit of having the benefit of being younger, and older, I can say that when I was younger, I was blissfully unaware of the huge list of things that would result in a person's employment ending, that I thought was absolutely reasonable for one to do. And maybe it was reasonable for one to do. But it also ended one's employment. I think the GP was mostly just trying to…

I think all of us learned these lessons the hard way, what's amazing is how much resistance I've encountered when I try to share this wisdom with folks in their early 20's. I guess the old adage is true, people like to learn their own lessons.

The resistance you're finding is not people disbelieving you, it's them trying to get you to understand that this is a Bad Thing we should want to change, even though it is true right now.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#132

Post by rkachowski »

PopeDotNinja wrote: post #26

In general, trash talking one's employer in public is usually inversely proportional to the longevity of one's employment with said employer.

do you think they deserved it? or are you trying to point out some axiom of employment that exists objectively and independent of exploitative working conditions?

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#133

Post by tobr »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #13
advisedwang wrote: post #7

> “We support every employee’s right to criticize their employer’s working conditions, but that does not come with blanket immunity against any and all internal policies,” Herdener said. > Amazon’s external communications policy prohibits employees from commenting publicly on its business without corporate justification and approval from executives. Herdener previously said the policy did not allow employees to “publ…

Uhh, I don't want to be Amazon defender, but in US most of the employment is at will. In practical terms, they can fire you for any or no reason at all. There are practicalities that come into play that have to do with unemployment insurance and whatnot, but company policy violation is a defensible 'cause' for firing. I am not a lawyer nor am I condoning this, but them is the facts. edit: added play

Friendly input: when you start a comment with “Uhh, ...”, it comes across as if you think the person you’re replying to is stupid. It reads like the equivalent of an eye-roll.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#134

Post by saghm »

bantunes wrote: post #118
gryzzly wrote: post #23

I wonder what their recruiting team thinks about these moves by the company. I know I will not work for Amazon seeing how the manage dissent at the company and I’m sure there are many other people who feel the same.

I think the kind of person that works at Amazon, after all that's been disclosed about worker conditions, is likely to be completely OK with this.

That might not be true; if the story itself indicates anything, it's that at least until recently, there were two people who worked for Amazon who were not okay with it. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more who are just afraid to speak out precisely because of the risk of getting fired.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#135

Post by aka1234 »

tengbretson wrote: post #22

What exactly does a UX designer know about the working conditions of an Amazon warehouse that they haven't simply read online like the rest of us anyway?

As an Amazon employee you can tour warehouses. And warehouse employees can shadow/tour other buildings/organizations. It's pretty commonplace. It's unlikely they'll approve a tour during the middle of COVID (considering tech workers are being forced to work for home). But the UX designers could very easily have personally seen the working conditions of a warehouse.

Further employee affinity groups span organizations. It's not uncommon to have friends in different areas of Amazon (including warehouses). So they could be hearing about conditions from their friends. Amazon employees also have access to internal company information about COVID response.

I'm not taking a stance on whether the UX designers should have been fired. Just pointing out that a UX designer employed by Amazon has more access to information about working conditions in warehouses than 'the rest of us.'

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#136

Post by katmannthree »

burrows wrote: post #84
katmannthree wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can indeed attempt to negotiate, and the prospective employer can (and likely will) just pass you up in favor of someone less troublesome. This really only works for a handful of people applying for high level jobs where they are significantly more desirable than anyone else who applied for the position.

That’s exactly what should happen in a free market. Company makes offer, laborer counters, then company counters or holds. If the company holds, the laborer should seek work at a different company. Just because the “value” of a man’s labor is low (in some sense), doesn’t mean the government should intervene.

So your argument has shifted from "if people want something they should negotiate for it instead of involving the government" to "even though the vast majority of people can't actually participate in meaningful negotiations the government still shouldn't intervene?"

You're essentially arguing that only the few people at the top should be able to do well. Just because anyone can rise to the top of their class and do well if they work hard enough doesn't mean everyone can, it's a race to the bottom of who can give up free time or family time to be more valuable to their employer. While in the short term employers might prefer that, I really don't think it's good for society long term.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#137

Post by systemvoltage »

jgacook wrote: post #119
sfkdjf9j3j wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've reread this comment a few times and I'm still not sure what to make of it. It's obviously true, but why post something with such a smug and gloating tone? Are you happy about how Amazon warehouse workers are treated and pleased to see people speaking out being fired in the midst of a pandemic?

It's a form of ethical handwashing of the kind the American justice system is built on. It's much easier to point out that taking a certain set of actions will lead to a certain set of outcomes than it is to judge whether the outcomes are fair or just, since those are abstract concepts that require critical thinking and making value judgments. "If you do X then you can expect Y" is a tautology built on observation th…

I have a hard time following your comment and logic. Can you expand in plain words what you mean, preferably with an example and concrete details?

Specifically:

> It's much easier to point out that taking a certain set of actions will lead to a certain set of outcomes

This statement is too vague. What specific actions and what specific outcomes?

> since those are abstract concepts that require critical thinking and making value judgments

What is "making value judgements" mean?

Also, when you say "American justice system" - is this specific to the American judicial law and it does not apply to other countries?

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#138

Post by qppo »

mcherm wrote: post #108
qppo wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without getting into all of the hazards about legislating morality it's impractical in our current climate. I don't think this should be illegal, personally. I do think that it would be helpful to make the decision making public though. Limited legal liability isn't limited moral liability. Rather than saying "amazon fired" someone they should tell us "Jane Doe a manager at Amazon made the decision to fire." People s…

I would immediately implement a special role for the head of HR: official decider of all firing decisions. No one will blame the head of HR because they'll know that they were only carrying out someone else's decision, while no one would blame the original decider because no one knows who it was.

Why would you want to create a workplace without personal responsibility for decision making? All I'm saying is to make that personal responsibility public.

It's pretty telling to me that I'm being downvoted for saying that I think people should own up to their decisions in the workplace that impact other people and are questionable ethically. Removing any kind of moral liability for those decisions is how we wind up with businesses that employ good people that do shitty things to other good people.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#139

Post by segmondy »

Don't bite the hand that feeds you. If you must talk against your employer in public, better go anonymous, if you have the courage to reveal your real identity, great! but be ready to bear the consequences. It's unfortunate, but most companies will do the same.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#140

Post by JSavageOne »

rw2 wrote: post #127

The UX designers never worked in a warehouse, they had no first hand experience. I would find the complaint more valuable from an actual Amazon warehouse workers. The UX designer probably work in a cushy Amazon corporate office with free snacks and drinks, but amazon warehouse roles are probably under more spartan and strict conditions. How does Amazon warehouse work conditions compare to other warehouse work conditi…

> The best way to protest an employer is to not work for them.

No, the best way to protest an employer is to speak out. "Not working" for a company like Amazon where there is an endless supply of people desperate for work does absolutely nothing. Remaining silent is what keeps the status quo going.

The rest of your comment reads like something a paid shill for Amazon would write.

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