Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#111

Post by staticassertion » Tue, Apr 14, 2020, 6:47 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #56

stronglikedan wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cynic in me thinks that for any number of potential candidates who feel the same, there are exponentially more candidates that just want to work there regardless, and the recruiting team knows this.

They could be alienating vastly more people than that. However, they only need to higher a tiny fraction of the US workforce each year. So, it’s still not a significant issue.

Their pool is not the entire US workforce, it's a relatively small group of highly skilled workers in a market where those workers can make tons of money at many different companies.

Alienating a fraction of that workforce will impact them, I think.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#112

Post by heyitsguay » Tue, Apr 14, 2020, 6:48 PM UTC

supernova87a wrote: post #97

paxys wrote: post #88

This is likely an unpopular opinion among the tech crowd here but I find it very hypocritical to publicly criticize your employer for their practices while expecting to continue enjoying cushy paychecks directly fueled by them. You cannot simultaneously be an activist and a cog in the wheel. Pick a side, and then accept the consequences.

Also, as pointed out elsewhere, people (or the general sentiment) on these discussions seemed to be all in favor of firing those who hold unpopular / conservative personal opinions, but now disagree with firing those with liberal opinions. If that's not viewpoint discrimination, I don't know what is.

Nobody's getting fired for suggesting the top marginal tax rate should be lower, or expressing the value of hard work and individual responsibility. The apparent phenomenon you allude to is the result of the normalization of sexist, racist, and xenophobic beliefs within the "conservative" sphere over the past few decades. Those beliefs are incompatible with being a member of a pluralistic workforce.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#113

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 » Tue, Apr 14, 2020, 6:48 PM UTC

atomi wrote: post #98

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you elaborate? I think I either misunderstand this type of argument or you meant to use a different link. If you look at my history, I am hardly a proponent of all things Amazon. I recognize their strengths and their weaknesses. It is important to clear eyes about all this.

When you appeal an argument to a higher authority, in your case the law, it's an attempt to shutdown further discussion. In other words, it's not an argument as to the merits of the points being made. You're just not addressing the points at all and appealing to "a higher authority."

Ok. I think understand your point now. I believe you have your argument type mixed up. You are probably looking for appeal to the law ( though it is still a stretch ). I am not dura lex sed lex guy, but I think it is necessary to point out current condition before we get too wound up over what the reality ought to be.

edit: corrected fallacy to argument

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#114

Post by YokoZar » Tue, Apr 14, 2020, 6:48 PM UTC

kube-system wrote: post #42

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uhh, I don't want to be Amazon defender, but in US most of the employment is at will. In practical terms, they can fire you for any or no reason at all. There are practicalities that come into play that have to do with unemployment insurance and whatnot, but company policy violation is a defensible 'cause' for firing. I am not a lawyer nor am I condoning this, but them is the facts. edit: added play

All US states recognize at-will employment. This does not mean that people can be fired for any reason, there are numerous laws that define reasons that are prohibited. But yes, shit talking your employer is generally not one of those reasons.

Discussing your working conditions with other workers or with the press is legally protected concerted activity by the NLRB. Firing workers for that is explicitly illegal.

You _cannot_ sign away these rights in an employee agreement or policy you agree to. Amazon having a "policy" against speaking out about unsafe working conditions is not a legal (or moral) defense of their behavior.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#115

Post by bigbob2 » Tue, Apr 14, 2020, 6:49 PM UTC

rochester46 wrote: post #72

throwaway_USD wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but in US most of the employment is at will. In practical terms, they can fire you for any or no reason at all. Yes, employment at-will allows both the employer and employee to terminate employment at anytime without cause. However, it seems pretty clear Amazon did not terminate these employees without cause...you can argue the termination was for violation of a company policy all you want (Amazon certainly will), b…

There are no constitutionally protected rights to disparage, or even just talk negatively about, anyone you want. The constitution has nothing to do with this case at all.

True, but NLRA may be applicable.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#116

Post by brewdad » Tue, Apr 14, 2020, 6:49 PM UTC

qppo wrote: post #70

Noughmad wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that case, people should make it illegal. Like they did in most other countries. The US is full of outrage about companies doing unethical things but nobody wants to make unethical things illegal.

Without getting into all of the hazards about legislating morality it's impractical in our current climate. I don't think this should be illegal, personally. I do think that it would be helpful to make the decision making public though. Limited legal liability isn't limited moral liability. Rather than saying "amazon fired" someone they should tell us "Jane Doe a manager at Amazon made the decision to fire." People s…

In a company the size of Amazon, the decision to fire probably didn't come from Jane Doe. She gets stuck delivering the message though. Should we just say Jeff Bezos fired these employees? We don't know if he played a role here but surely he could have prevented their firing if he so desired.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#117

Post by pera » Tue, Apr 14, 2020, 6:49 PM UTC

PopeDotNinja wrote: post #26

In general, trash talking one's employer in public is usually inversely proportional to the longevity of one's employment with said employer.

Making requests to improve important safety practices is considered "trash talking"? Such a harsh stance for those working at warehouse during a pandemic from someone probably working from home...

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#118

Post by bantunes » Tue, Apr 14, 2020, 6:49 PM UTC

gryzzly wrote: post #23

I wonder what their recruiting team thinks about these moves by the company. I know I will not work for Amazon seeing how the manage dissent at the company and I’m sure there are many other people who feel the same.

I think the kind of person that works at Amazon, after all that's been disclosed about worker conditions, is likely to be completely OK with this.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#119

Post by jgacook » Tue, Apr 14, 2020, 6:51 PM UTC

sfkdjf9j3j wrote: post #60

PopeDotNinja wrote: post #26

In general, trash talking one's employer in public is usually inversely proportional to the longevity of one's employment with said employer.

I've reread this comment a few times and I'm still not sure what to make of it. It's obviously true, but why post something with such a smug and gloating tone? Are you happy about how Amazon warehouse workers are treated and pleased to see people speaking out being fired in the midst of a pandemic?

It's a form of ethical handwashing of the kind the American justice system is built on. It's much easier to point out that taking a certain set of actions will lead to a certain set of outcomes than it is to judge whether the outcomes are fair or just, since those are abstract concepts that require critical thinking and making value judgments.

"If you do X then you can expect Y" is a tautology built on observation that divorces the observer from any responsibility for the outcome Y.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#120

Post by reaperducer » Tue, Apr 14, 2020, 6:51 PM UTC

advisedwang wrote: post #7

> “We support every employee’s right to criticize their employer’s working conditions, but that does not come with blanket immunity against any and all internal policies,” Herdener said. > Amazon’s external communications policy prohibits employees from commenting publicly on its business without corporate justification and approval from executives. Herdener previously said the policy did not allow employees to “publ…

Amazon’s external communications policy prohibits employees from commenting publicly on its business without corporate justification and approval from executives.

This has been the policy at every company I've worked for since the 90's. It's usually in the employee handbook, and at a couple of places I had to sign a separate paper acknowledging it.

Amazingly, several of those companies were news organizations. It's usually the first indication that a company is more interested in its stock price than doing the right thing.