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Nasty macOS flaw is bricking MacBooks: Don't install this update

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Re: Nasty macOS flaw is bricking MacBooks: Don't install this update

#361

Post by zamalek »

nicolas_t wrote: post #145
eru wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A lesson from my Windows days way back when was never to update anything unless absolutely needed -- computer, phones, etc. Windows 10 seems to be pretty good at keeping its users on the latest version? (Unless you actively tell it, not to?)

Yes and because they have a bug with egpu they introduced in August, I had to go in Group policy to disable updates until they finally release a fix or my eGPU won't work (it's in beta apparently and will come out after 11 months)... And I was complaining about Apple but this is even worse...

> And I was complaining about Apple but this is even worse...

So a driver bug, affecting a single external device, is worse than completely bricking an entire machine?

Microsoft have had their share of controversies with updates (recent memory is deleting user data folder before they halted the rollout), but they have never made a machine unresponsive to the degree of the multiple anecdotes in this comment section.

HN has some smart folks, but the leeway those folks afford Apple despite their continuous hostile and incompetent behavior is incredible.

Re: Nasty macOS flaw is bricking MacBooks: Don't install this update

#362

Post by Roboprog »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #243
sethammons wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recently moved from android to an iPhone. The one that gets me while typing: I can’t tap and place the cursor in the middle of a word! Say you mistype a word, you cannot edit that word. You have to delete the entire word or tap and hold to get highlighting and then drag the highlight together to cover one letter on the word and then you can delete and get your cursor in the middle of the word. Insane.

Press and hold on the spacebar. Wait a second. Then you can move the cursor left/right from the spacebar. iOS is generally quite good at these things. Like any new platform, you can't expect it the UX to be identical to an old platform that you're more familiar with.

Thanks. It’s a shame they couldn’t display left and right arrows if you click into the middle of the previously entered text, though.

Re: Nasty macOS flaw is bricking MacBooks: Don't install this update

#363

Post by onebigbug »

at_a_remove wrote: post #224
gregmac wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Bricked" is relative, depending on your skill level. For some consumers, if recovery mode doesn't work that might be the end of line. However, there are more advanced users that can access the storage via another system and fix it there, hook up via serial port or JTAG and flash new firmware, or even desolder and replace chips. On the far other end of the spectrum, there's going to be people that consider "doesn't s…

If you go that route, "bricked" is now indistinguishable from "broke," and we already have a word for that. Broke. We would have then gone from a situation where we had two different states and names for each of those states to a situation where we have two words for the very same, very fuzzy state and no way to talk about the other state. It makes a mockery of the idea of advice. Imagine your parents calling you and…

So...I generally agree with the idea that it is more useful to have two terms that mean something distinct than two terms that both mean a fuzzy version of the same thing. In that, despite linguistic history, or the common parlance of whatever time or place, I think "literally" is useful as a concept that should disallow it from use as a term for exaggeration. Because sometimes context does not expose "I am literally going to kill you"'s meaning, and it is useful to know if that's literal or not.

However, I think the situation you might find here is that, if you define "bricked" as a situation which is literally unrepairable, almost nothing is ever bricked. Which similarly makes it a not very useful term. Bricking would be a term exclusive to devices which have been...exposed to an intense EMP, or run through an oven. Situations which, while they may occasionally happen, happen so rarely that no one would ever use the word.

Re: Nasty macOS flaw is bricking MacBooks: Don't install this update

#364

Post by nimish »

FireBeyond wrote: post #128
Shank wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. It’s essentially an ARM A-series chip — it has firmware (BridgeOS) and does have a DFU mode. See https://help.apple.com/configurator/mac/2.7.1/#/apd0020c3dc2

Best have your spare MacBook available to do it!

Love to need another $3000 machine to fix my $3000 machine

Re: Nasty macOS flaw is bricking MacBooks: Don't install this update

#365

Post by thu2111 »

kiwijamo wrote: post #163
Joeri wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On windows you can choose to get feature updates with a 4 month delay if you have windows pro (set updates to "Semi-Annual Channel" instead of "Semi-Annual Channel (Targeted)", and yes microsoft are indeed terrible with naming things). I never had issues with windows updates on that branch. There is also windows enterprise long term servicing branch (LTSB), which gets feature updates every 3 years (but is meant more…

Second the recommendation to stay on Mojave. I do this for my $WORK laptop and it still gets back-ported security updates. $WORK's IT department has advised Apple users to hold off upgrading to 10.15 and it seems they have good reason to continue dispensing that advice, still...!

Heck, I do that with my personal laptop. Feeling pretty happy having read these comments that I never took the leap to Catalina.

I feel pretty sure this must be common because I still see apps and infrastructure, even last month, coming out with updates related to Catalina compatibility.

It sucks though. I have a Google Pixel phone and never hesitate to apply updates, I even look forward to them. I don't think I've ever had an Android phone experience the sort of severe regressions that occur regularly with Apple updates.

I've been a MBP user for a long time, but I'm really starting to wonder if it's time to take a leap soon. I've been using this laptop for maybe a year and:

1. I'm scared to upgrade to the latest OS

2. The screen's coating has been damaged and has key-print impressions on it. This always happens and Apple seem incapable of fixing it.

3. The latest butterfly keyboard has at least not broken on me for 8 months or so, but the options, C and A keys have worn through and now have holes in them. This started happening a few generations ago and now seems like a regular problem that I'm just supposed to accept.

4. Very soon after getting it something happened to the metal such that it has a large discolouration on the bottom left, of a type I've never seen before. Nothing seems to fix it.

5. The screen routinely gets a yellow splotch in one of the corners if the laptop has been in my backpack for a while.

The problem is that despite not even really having improved for years, macOS is probably still the best OS out there. Linux on laptops has never worked well - my colleagues who try to use it routinely have issues with webcams not working properly. Windows laptops seem to vary wildly in quality and many of them have stupid design flaws like putting the webcam at the bottom of the screen instead of the top, coming loaded with crapware, anti-virus products that cripple performance, Windows is still a rats nest of weird problems under the hood. And their way to make it better for developers is to just bundle Linux?

I really wish there was more competition in the laptops-for-technical-people space.

Re: Nasty macOS flaw is bricking MacBooks: Don't install this update

#366

Post by floatingatoll »

jplayer01 wrote: post #291
floatingatoll wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The SSD in a T2 Mac is encrypted in the same way that an iPhone is, so if the DFU crashes hard enough you’ll have to regenerate new keys and that’s equivalent to drive zero. Glad it helped.

Is it possible to export a recovery key? Because this kind of failure simply due to a bad update shouldn't be acceptable.

No, it’s not possible to use a FileVault recovery key at this stage of repair.

It’s not failure, it’s secure by design to prevent attackers/governments from stealing your files without consent.

Under DFU brick and reset circumstances, the private key is gone, because otherwise an attacker could just upload a hacked firmware via DFU and access all your files.

I assume the installer uses a different process that performs a DFU upgrade-in-place that safely manages the handoff using signed code and such, but that’s not the process we get as a last restore described above.

If you don’t have off-device backups, you’re accepting the risk of losing all your data at any time due to any number of possible failures (software and hardware). Not much use getting upset about this specific case.

Re: Nasty macOS flaw is bricking MacBooks: Don't install this update

#367

Post by sk5t »

xenospn wrote: post #347
odshoifsdhfs wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have this issue. Computer went to sleep after the update. This was on Friday. Haven't been able to do any kind of thing on it. Trackpad 'clicks' but no screen, not touchbar, nothing (2018 Macbook Pro). Called apple, they tld me it had to go a store, unfortunately where I live, due to quarantine there are no shops available to pick it, and we aren't allowed to drive outside our district. Will try the apple configura…

If that had happened to me my entire startup would have to shut down. Not cool.

Consider a plan B, like, run Linux on off-the-shelf hardware.

Re: Nasty macOS flaw is bricking MacBooks: Don't install this update

#368

Post by floatingatoll »

pvg wrote: post #336
jplayer01 wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it possible to export a recovery key? Because this kind of failure simply due to a bad update shouldn't be acceptable.

You get a recovery key when the original key is generated.

Yes: You can export a FileVault recovery key when enabling FileVault, whether on a T2 Mac or not.

No: There’s no opportunity to use FileVault recovery keys when you’re doing a DFU on a T2 Mac. If you have to DFU, your data is lost.

(edited to clarify per reply)

Re: Nasty macOS flaw is bricking MacBooks: Don't install this update

#369

Post by thu2111 »

apple4ever wrote: post #273
deergomoo wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish macOS would just drop back to major releases every 2-3 years. Sure, drop a point release in September to add compatibility with whatever new feature iOS has gained, but my Mac is the computer I do work on. I need it to always be reliable. Right now it seems the only way to do that is wait a long time before installing any update they push.

I absolutely agree. The action of pushing out major updates every year has lead to a drop in quality. They never get a chance to fix last years bugs because they are working on next years features.

That's not a fundamental issue though. Chrome pushes new features every six weeks. Android updates every year and doesn't suffer these kinds of problems.

You absolutely can do regular updates that are high quality. You just can't do them in an environment that's deadline driven, or which gives PMs too much power over what dev teams work on.

Re: Nasty macOS flaw is bricking MacBooks: Don't install this update

#370

Post by floatingatoll »

gregmac wrote: post #45
ObsoleteNerd wrote: post #4

It's not "bricked" if you can fix it in Recovery Mode. Still bad that it's happening, but the term "bricked" is thrown around so flippantly these days. If a piece of tech is bricked, it's not recoverable at all.

"Bricked" is relative, depending on your skill level. For some consumers, if recovery mode doesn't work that might be the end of line. However, there are more advanced users that can access the storage via another system and fix it there, hook up via serial port or JTAG and flash new firmware, or even desolder and replace chips. On the far other end of the spectrum, there's going to be people that consider "doesn't s…

The above thread about using DFU to recover a bricked MacBook confirms this: To HN experts, the device was bricked, until a new repair step was made known that could repair the issue (“unbrick it”).
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