Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Even during a crisis, colleges abuse their economic and reputational privileges

city-journal.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 112 posts

Re: Even during a crisis, colleges abuse their economic and reputational privileges

#81

Post by nabla9 »

watwut wrote: post #61
nabla9 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is basically agricultural era thinking peppered with laissez-faire ideology. In 1700-hundreads you could drop average household with some seeds and few tools into the forest and they would go on. If there was village around with 50-100 people their productivity would probably double. Connected to organized state and trade it might increase even more. Today >95% of the value from work comes from the infrastructur…

That being said, in 1700-hundreads they still depended on army. And the interdependence with other households was great too. The was reasons back then for people to bundle themselves into small cities - survival on you own would be quite hard.

Another misconception is that free market is the default state in society.

In the pre-industrial societies concept of 'fair price' in contrast to 'market price' was very important. Any attempt to increase or lower price to get advantage of distress of others was dealt by the community.

Re: Even during a crisis, colleges abuse their economic and reputational privileges

#82

Post by barry-cotter »

firebacon wrote: post #31
martin_a wrote: post #14

One can only shake his head when you hear about how things work in America. Why are you so hostile against each other and/or the weaker/younger/non-wealthy people? In most of Europe, education is free. You'll obviously have to take care of your own cost of living, but there are no real fees where you come out of your education and have 100k in debt. Why do things in America work so different? It's not (yet) a third w…

The other difference of course is that in Germany, only a fairly small proportion of high school students is even allowed to go to Uni. People that were not placed into Gymnasium at age 8 are set on a course where, once they turn 18, do not get to go free Uni; they simply are not allowed to go to Uni at all! Also the problem of cost of living while studying isn't exactly trivial. Accommodation, food and participating…

> People that were not placed into Gymnasium at age 8 are set on a course where, once they turn 18, do not get to go free Uni; they simply are not allowed to go to Uni at all!

Interesting. When I lived in Germany you could go to university if you had an Abitur by virtue of having attended a normal Gymnasium (grammar school), by attending an Aufbaugymnasium after graduating Realschule or Hauptschule and getting an Abitur that way or by completing an apprenticeship and then going to university.

When were those other routes to university closed off?

Re: Even during a crisis, colleges abuse their economic and reputational privileges

#83

Post by amedvednikov »

aantix wrote: post #37
martin_a wrote: post #14

One can only shake his head when you hear about how things work in America. Why are you so hostile against each other and/or the weaker/younger/non-wealthy people? In most of Europe, education is free. You'll obviously have to take care of your own cost of living, but there are no real fees where you come out of your education and have 100k in debt. Why do things in America work so different? It's not (yet) a third w…

Because we don’t want to pay 50% in taxes.

But the tax rates are very similar, especially in places like California, once you account for the property tax and health insurance.

Re: Even during a crisis, colleges abuse their economic and reputational privileges

#84

Post by rnikander »

martin_a wrote: post #14

One can only shake his head when you hear about how things work in America. Why are you so hostile against each other and/or the weaker/younger/non-wealthy people? In most of Europe, education is free. You'll obviously have to take care of your own cost of living, but there are no real fees where you come out of your education and have 100k in debt. Why do things in America work so different? It's not (yet) a third w…

Education - yes. Subsidizing the horrendous waste at typical US colleges and universities - no.

I'm not sure it's the same in Europe. Maybe your "free" university is more bare-bones, essential.

I'm from the USA, and went to one of the "best" universities in the country, for a STEM degree. It was a huge waste of money. For my peers who paid to have communists tell them what Shakespeare means, it was an even bigger waste. Why should we subsidize something that is such a fraud? I could get the same or better education for 0-10% of the cost by taking classes online, self-study, and then paying, in a few specific/advanced cases, for hands-on experience in a lab or consultation with an expert. Outside of STEM it's even worse. I've seen students pay $5-15K for a foreign language course, when you can learn more effectively for $10-20/hour on Skype with a native speaker. I once listened to a philosophy class at one of the most expensive colleges in the USA. It was beyond parody.

Re: Even during a crisis, colleges abuse their economic and reputational privileges

#85

Post by imtringued »

firebacon wrote: post #31
martin_a wrote: post #14

One can only shake his head when you hear about how things work in America. Why are you so hostile against each other and/or the weaker/younger/non-wealthy people? In most of Europe, education is free. You'll obviously have to take care of your own cost of living, but there are no real fees where you come out of your education and have 100k in debt. Why do things in America work so different? It's not (yet) a third w…

The other difference of course is that in Germany, only a fairly small proportion of high school students is even allowed to go to Uni. People that were not placed into Gymnasium at age 8 are set on a course where, once they turn 18, do not get to go free Uni; they simply are not allowed to go to Uni at all! Also the problem of cost of living while studying isn't exactly trivial. Accommodation, food and participating…

>People that were not placed into Gymnasium at age 8 are set on a course where, once they turn 18, do not get to go free Uni; they simply are not allowed to go to Uni at all!

Well, that's not true at all. If you finish Realschule or Hauptschule you can decide to go the Gymnasium when you are 16. You can also go to a Gymnasium for adults while you work.

From my experience at least a third of my fellow Realschule graduates decided to continue school and go to the Gymnasium. Then at work I knew at least two people who decided to go to an evening Gymnasium while they were working at their first job. The problem clearly isn't a lack of opportunity. The number of people enrolling at our evening Gymnasium is shrinking and at some point they might have to shut it down completely.

Re: Even during a crisis, colleges abuse their economic and reputational privileges

#86

Post by RhysU »

say_it_as_it_is wrote: post #25

No, not a ponzi scheme. Inflows aren't funding outflows under an illusion of value creation.

The article claims that, pre-covid, an increasing number of bureaucrats were being funded by an increasing number of increasingly ill-prepared freshman. Those freshman were not receiving value. If one accepts the article's perspective, why was that condition not a ponzi scheme?

Re: Even during a crisis, colleges abuse their economic and reputational privileges

#88

Post by aantix »

amedvednikov wrote: post #83
aantix wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because we don’t want to pay 50% in taxes.

But the tax rates are very similar, especially in places like California, once you account for the property tax and health insurance.

Then CA has what it needs.

Look at the transit plans that CA has been trying to implement for years. Giving them more tax money will solve this?

Re: Even during a crisis, colleges abuse their economic and reputational privileges

#89

Post by aantix »

mushbino wrote: post #46
aantix wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because we don’t want to pay 50% in taxes.

Exactly, we want to pay 40% and have no healthcare, no free higher education, and no decent mass transit.

Exactly.

Let me spend the extra 10% as I want. You want free ed, pay for it yourself.

Re: Even during a crisis, colleges abuse their economic and reputational privileges

#90

Post by em-bee »

firebacon wrote: post #31
martin_a wrote: post #14

One can only shake his head when you hear about how things work in America. Why are you so hostile against each other and/or the weaker/younger/non-wealthy people? In most of Europe, education is free. You'll obviously have to take care of your own cost of living, but there are no real fees where you come out of your education and have 100k in debt. Why do things in America work so different? It's not (yet) a third w…

The other difference of course is that in Germany, only a fairly small proportion of high school students is even allowed to go to Uni. People that were not placed into Gymnasium at age 8 are set on a course where, once they turn 18, do not get to go free Uni; they simply are not allowed to go to Uni at all! Also the problem of cost of living while studying isn't exactly trivial. Accommodation, food and participating…

that is not quite correct. apart from the gymnasium which you enter in 5th grade (not at age 8) there is also the gesamtschule which offers all three kinds of graduations. in a gesamtschule the decision to do the final three years of high school to get the abitur isn't really made until you are in grade 10. so there is absolutely no reason that anyone is prevented from getting into university just because they or their parents didn't decide early enough.

as for the cost of living, there is financial support for everyone who otherwise can't afford it. if the majority of students depend on their parents then thats because those parents can afford it.

but money is not the main reason why most people don't get into university.

germany has other good options for higher education besides university. the USA does not.

it is only natural that most people follow their parents when it comes to higher education. i do not see that as a problem that needs to be solved. it may be beneficial to mix things up a little, but university education is not a panacea, and i'd rather see the reputation and recognition of alternatives increased.

Post reply on HN