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Stop the Apple and Google contact tracing platform

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Re: Stop the Apple and Google contact tracing platform

#101
post #87
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, you make some good points but you could have made them without rudely characterizing the author ("...but the gubment could.." etc.) Second, the author is not wrong - when you build in tracking at such a deep-level it is open to abuse. Read the authors bio, he is not a naive techie. This is an area he has strong background in and deep technical knowledge. Maybe this is the path forward, but Apple and Google app…

It’s exactly because of the Author’s bio that I come down hard on him. He knows what he’s saying is wrong, and he knows that if the FUD he’s spreading catches on, a lot of suffering will happen that otherwise would not have. > when you build in tracking at such a deep-level it is open to abuse. True, which is why he should do an analysis of this system rather than this. He could be using his platform as an authority…

No, what he is saying is very plausible and very likely correct. It is not mis-information. It is a well founded concern. I've been in tech long enough to know that what he is proposing is very possible.

Other commenters here go into better detail than I.

Re: Stop the Apple and Google contact tracing platform

#102
post #95
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is utterly insane to trust Google or Apple for any reason whatsoever under any circumstance. They lie as often as they can get away with. You understand what they do, with with it or not despite any promises they make. Fool me yet again and i feel bad so I'll trust you absolutely now? Come on!

Multiple people have asked you to support your claims with evidence. Why is it so hard for you to do this? Could it be that you have none?!

Hahaha. Oh really. You're serious?

You don't think silicon valley has performed the most massive bait and switch setting up a surveillance state? You've never heard of the NSA? You don't think Apple, Google and All the rest have literally created APIs to serve them?

The case is not one I have to make. The case for not treating "trust" with utter, withering contempt is the one that has to be made. And it has not been made. At all.

Why? Because it's actually not possible to do with a straight face.

But have a go. You seem confident at least.

Re: Stop the Apple and Google contact tracing platform

#103
In my humble opinion, this platform aims to track if people had got contact by bluetooth with other people that might have the virus.

The virus can remain in surfaces up to 3 days(https://www.immedicohospitalario.es/noticia/18729/new-corona...).

With bluetooth you can not track the surfaces, so the ratio of false positives and false negatives will be high.

The best way to stop possible infections remains in individual measures anyone can take. For this reason, I think that the objective of this platform is to track people, not stop the virus.

Re: Stop the Apple and Google contact tracing platform

#104

Note: In China it's private businesses, not the government, that force people to install the tracing apps on their phones before being let into their establishments. The same thing can and probably will happen here : get tracked or be denied service. The government doesn't have to do anything.

Wait a minute, aren't all private businesses owned or controlled by the CCP?

Re: Stop the Apple and Google contact tracing platform

#105
post #15

??? I don't think anybody who catches the coronavirus wants to be anonymous. There is no social stigma. The problem is exactly the reverse: infected people would gladly tell everybody exposed, but they can't reach them since the virus spreads so easily and the exposed could be delivery drivers, people in the grocery store, etc

Unfortunately in my country - Croatia - the social stigma exists. While we have a very good situation (total of 1500 cases on population of 4M, with 20 deaths), and we are geographicaly very close to Italy, there were multiple reports of patients’ families being harassed.

Well then it's good that this system doesn't tell you who tested positive.

Re: Stop the Apple and Google contact tracing platform

#106
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s exactly because of the Author’s bio that I come down hard on him. He knows what he’s saying is wrong, and he knows that if the FUD he’s spreading catches on, a lot of suffering will happen that otherwise would not have. > when you build in tracking at such a deep-level it is open to abuse. True, which is why he should do an analysis of this system rather than this. He could be using his platform as an authority…

No, what he is saying is very plausible and very likely correct. It is not mis-information. It is a well founded concern. I've been in tech long enough to know that what he is proposing is very possible. Other commenters here go into better detail than I.

Please do read comments by others. There are some good ones that go through, point by point, places where the author is wrong.

Re: Stop the Apple and Google contact tracing platform

#108

In my humble opinion, this platform aims to track if people had got contact by bluetooth with other people that might have the virus. The virus can remain in surfaces up to 3 days( https://www.immedicohospitalario.es/noticia/18729/new-corona... ). With bluetooth you can not track the surfaces, so the ratio of false positives and false negatives will be high. The best way to stop possible infections remains in individ…

That's a logical fallacy. This app not being able to prevent all possible infections and having false positives / false negatives does not automatically mean that its sole purpose is to track users.

There are multiple scientific studies that support the use of an app as one of many measures for ending the lockdown which already takes away many basic rights at the moment. Even though viral RNA can be found on surfaces after hours this does not mean that surfaces are an important vector for transmission and all studies so far point in the opposite direction. What is very concerning however is that close to 50% of all tranmissions happen during the first few days of infection when the host is not experiencing any symptoms. In the absence of symptoms and given the many limitations of personal follow-up through the authorities (which gives them much more data on your person than this app ever could btw) an automatic notification system is the only way short of a complete shutdown to quarantine infected but currently asymptomatic patients and halt the spread of the virus.

Privacy-wise you would be worse of in any other situation as well. Do you want the shutdown to continue and police to be able to control you at any time when you leave your appartement? Do you want government workers asking the infected who they have been in contact with during the last weeks and them to give your name, address and contact details to the government? Do you want the economical crisis to continue and people to have to share all possible details with the government in order to get unemployment benefits? Also, Apple and Google already control your operating system and have much more data on you than this app could provide them with through their OSs and all their apps. What they could gain would at most be the knowledge of wether you could have been in contact with an infected person. Leaving aside that their system as outlined atm would not even allow them to do that, what would they gain? For most people there won't be any lasting effects so there ara no charateristics inherent to the group that can be targeted. It will also affect a huge chunk of the world's population, chances are that most people will have to quarantine at some point and then that data will be almost worthless.

Re: Stop the Apple and Google contact tracing platform

#109
post #77
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He objects to two things: 1. Doing it globally would require download of too much data, thus (contra promise of the spec) location data will have to enter. However, from what I can tell, that could be very coarse data, on the level of country and/or time zone (thus, not even necessitating access to GPS location data). I don’t see it as a major problem. 2. The “prank” danger: someone just pressing “I’m infected” for f…

> The “prank” danger: someone just pressing “I’m infected” for fun. How about you can only check the "I'm infected" box if your phone is near the phone of a health worker? Another idea is that you get a code in the mail from the hospital which you have to enter in the app.

In the UK, most supermarkets have an hour where only health workers can enter (quite right, give them priority). But this makes it trivial to get close enough to health-worker to execute your prank, just join that queue.

Re: Stop the Apple and Google contact tracing platform

#110
post #36

I'm afraid someone has to tell the author that what is already possible is worse than the concerns raised here. This technology is actually an effort to not use the available methods that would ignore privacy.

Indeed, combined with the authors stream of consciousness rant made this an infuriating read. I've met people like this before, usually their paranoia is made worse by their lack of technical knowledge. This also makes them difficult to convince that they are wrong. Since they don't have enough knowledge to tell who is right in a discussion, they often just listen to the loudest voice that is reinforcing their world view.
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