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Stop the Apple and Google contact tracing platform

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Re: Stop the Apple and Google contact tracing platform

#91

Post by GordonS »

jmull wrote: post #83
GordonS wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This guy says, yeah, but the gubment could abuse the tracing mechanism for things besides an epidemic.. > ...except, if a government can pull those off, they don’t need this new contact tracing platform. These assume the government already has deep, control of the details of the operating system. It doesn't have to be about the security services having root on your phone - they can use legislation, forcing Apple/Go…

You’re missing the main point: if the government can do this, it will, independent of this contact tracing platform. Also, there is no location data in this platform, and Google and Apple don’t have the data that does exist. > naive I think you need to understand what’s going on here before you start throwing around words like that.

> You’re missing the main point: if the government can do this, it will, independent of this contact tracing platform

How? I'm not talking about getting a warrant to infiltrate a single suspect's device, I'm talking about mass surveillance. They need a means, and depending on how they approach it, they need to soften up the public so they are willing.

Apps like this provide a means - maybe they don't collect everything the security services want from the beginning, but we could see a creeping escalation, especially under coercion by the security services.

As for softening up, western governments are already very good at keeping the general populace fearful, whether it be the commies, Russians, Chinese, Islam, terrorists, etc, there is always some boogeyman de jour.

Apps like this could be the opportunity they need - the straw that broke the camel's back, convincing people it's all to save lives. "good citizens will use these apps to save lives - what have you got to hide?".

Re: Stop the Apple and Google contact tracing platform

#92

Post by jmull »

mpweiher wrote: post #76
jmull wrote: post #52

This guy is wrong about the Apple/Google contact tracing program. As created, it’s opt-in only and does not report matches to a central authority. This guy says, yeah, but the gubment could abuse the tracing mechanism for things besides an epidemic, force your phone to report matches centrally, and force the removal of the opt-in part of it. ...except, if a government can pull those off, they don’t need this new cont…

There's quite a difference between either forcing Apple and Google to build such a feature, which seems hard, vs. just forcing them to turn an existing feature on. Same for turning such a feature on surreptitiously vs. installing such a feature surreptitiously.

It’s not just turning something on though.

This system doesn’t do what the author is talking about. It’s decentralized, opt-in, and transparent. The government would have to force Apple and Google to make it centralized, automatic, and secret. In others, force them to make a completely different platform.

Re: Stop the Apple and Google contact tracing platform

#93

Post by andy_ppp »

g_p wrote: post #60
andy_ppp wrote: post #31

I mean surely mobile phone operators already have this information? I never hear about them being subpoenaed or attempting to deny requests, makes me think the make this information fully available.

Operators currently have handset location data, based on cell tower triangulation. I imagine many will store this, but this may vary by network. The absolute minimum you need, in order to run a network, is to know the current location of the handset, so you can route calls to it. Historical data isn't required for delivery of the service. I imagine in countries with weaker privacy laws, data like this can be used lik…

DNS + WiFi + Mobile phone masts etc. You could probably get some real location data by augmentation with coopted social networks add in some AI for expected locations and regular appointments. Do iPhone photos include location data in the exif data? I think the information exists but it’s just used by spooks right now is all.

Re: Stop the Apple and Google contact tracing platform

#94

Post by morsch »

joking wrote: post #86
morsch wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Published keys are 16 bytes, one for each day. If moderate numbers of smartphone users are infected in any given week, that's 100s of MBs for all phones to DL. That seems untenable. It's a lot, but untenable? If 300 million report as infected, that's 4.8 GB, coincidently the size of a DVD. So 2 hours of Netflix, 1 hour at 4k. Very easy to cache this data close to the edge, too.

300 million each day would be the whole world population on less than a month. At current numbers ( 13000 per day ) that’s a few megabytes without compression.

Yes. That's my point. Even if you chose a ludicrously high value -- in this case approximately the entire population of the US --, you still get an amount of data that's manageable as evidenced by the fact that various companies manage it every day.

Re: Stop the Apple and Google contact tracing platform

#95

Post by xvector »

harry8 wrote: post #88
simonh wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Google or Apple wanted to track the movements and activities of everyone using an Android phone or iPhone, they would just do it. They wouldn’t need to publish an API and wouldn’t need to tell you about it. They could just do it and we might never know. So this has nothing whatever to do with trust of Google or Apple tracking us, it’s about trusting what data they share and expose via this API for virus contact tr…

It is utterly insane to trust Google or Apple for any reason whatsoever under any circumstance. They lie as often as they can get away with. You understand what they do, with with it or not despite any promises they make. Fool me yet again and i feel bad so I'll trust you absolutely now? Come on!

Multiple people have asked you to support your claims with evidence. Why is it so hard for you to do this? Could it be that you have none?!

Re: Stop the Apple and Google contact tracing platform

#96

Post by jmull »

GordonS wrote: post #91
jmull wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re missing the main point: if the government can do this, it will, independent of this contact tracing platform. Also, there is no location data in this platform, and Google and Apple don’t have the data that does exist. > naive I think you need to understand what’s going on here before you start throwing around words like that.

> You’re missing the main point: if the government can do this, it will, independent of this contact tracing platform How? I'm not talking about getting a warrant to infiltrate a single suspect's device, I'm talking about mass surveillance. They need a means, and depending on how they approach it, they need to soften up the public so they are willing. Apps like this provide a means - maybe they don't collect everythi…

We’re already at the bottom of the hill of that slippery slope argument. Nearly everyone already carries the tools of mass surveillance around with them everywhere they go already.

What may or may not be partially missing (don’t forget, cell towers are already tracking everyone’s general location and governments can get that data in various ways) is the software and backend systems to collect that data and make it available to governments... and this contact tracing system isn’t that software and doesn’t have back end components.

So again: while these privacy concerns are valid, they have nothing to do with this contact tracing system

Re: Stop the Apple and Google contact tracing platform

#97

Post by xvector »

bronzeage wrote: post #12
jchristian- wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly the kind of dumb mentally the government wants, and you fell right into the trap. They always use situations like that to push bad stuff that won't be easy to ditch later...

People can't literally exit their houses right now. Much more basic freedoms are taken. If you think ditching that later will be hard, ditching it now when it's desperately needed is impossible.

That is no excuse to tell people to give up their privacy. Some people value their freedoms more than you, it seems.

Re: Stop the Apple and Google contact tracing platform

#98

Post by cameronbrown »

Slartie wrote: post #68
FabHK wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He objects to two things: 1. Doing it globally would require download of too much data, thus (contra promise of the spec) location data will have to enter. However, from what I can tell, that could be very coarse data, on the level of country and/or time zone (thus, not even necessitating access to GPS location data). I don’t see it as a major problem. 2. The “prank” danger: someone just pressing “I’m infected” for f…

His argument No. 1 is self-defeating. If you have rapid exponential growth and would have to publish hundreds of megabytes of keys per day (and phones only need to download the delta to the previous day), this approach of contact tracing is useless and you must instead get the entire population under lockdown. If everybody is sheltering at home, nobody needs notifications of possible contacts, because everybody is do…

I think the point with this is when the curve starts to flatten, we can _safely_ reopen the economy. Contract tracing and rapid response can end this.

Re: Stop the Apple and Google contact tracing platform

#99

Post by cameronbrown »

cletus wrote: post #72

Maybe the best thing to come out of this crisis is a chip in the armor for the privacy-over-everything crowd. This is a particular problem in the US where in the name of "freedom" people feel entitled to do whatever they want. I've come around to thinking that this is little more than a mass rationalization for selfishness and cruelty. I think back to things like the Trump administration separating children from pare…

> But we've somehow transitioned into a society where we don't want to do anything for anyone. And we want to call that "liberty".

Agreed - rights without responsibilities are just privileges.

> Not every surface is a slippery slope.

Maybe, maybe not. The whole point of the slippery slope metaphor is that it's hard to know when to stop. I think this is a better trade-off than the economy sinking though.

Re: Stop the Apple and Google contact tracing platform

#100

Post by jjgreen »

josefresco wrote: post #65

These hand waving, overly dismissive, FUD articles need to stop. Propose an alternative or shut up and sit down. Complaining about a tactic to combat a pandemic without a solution of your own is the lowest form of civic participation.

I'm sure they'll become illegal soon.
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