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Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

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Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#441
post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it won't. Speaking as someone who is currently spending his days sourcing medical equipment for his medical center: the cheapest US-based face shield costs nearly 3x what the average face shield in China does (the most expensive US face shield is >10x). Even with shipping hiccoughs and the desire to buy American, I can't justify purchasing 1/3 the personal protective equipment.

In the current situation they probably don't have a lot of incentive to lower prices. But the question is: how much premium would you be willing to pay for a local supplier? If the american company was "only" 50% more expensive, would it work out after the pandemic?

Probably not?

I mean, as a personal consumer, yes - I'd pay a premium on my own products to buy American. I do, in fact, do that when it's an option.

As an organizational representative, though, that's iffier. Healthcare reimbursement is pretty heavily regulated (most of the wild price fluctuation you see has to do with numbers used for public-facing negotiations, not the contracted rates we actually ever get paid.) The only way we get by is by minimizing costs; we can't really increase revenue effectively, except by increasing volume of services. As it is, operating margins in hospitals tend to run at about 2% - it's razor, razor thin. Upping expenses 50% on "critical" items (which for us is, you know, a huge proportion of our stuff) would put us out of business.

It's not something we can do unilaterally. Either it has be funded through an increase in funding earmarked for that, or something equivalent.

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "China doesn't like Muslims so they kill them all". You should know that it's the han way or death for the CCP. I don't understand the point of to your posts. Whataboutism is a poor excuse.

The point is to provide a more balanced and fair view of things. Accusations of whataboutism is disingenuous, especially because I didn't even engage in it: I talked about China only. If anything, the parent I replied to is the one that talked about other nations. And there you go with the "or death" thing. Forced reeducation and detention, yes. But where is the proof that systematic killing is happening? All the pro…

>I don't need to remind you of all the human rights violations by the US.

Whataboutism

>And what do you say about the fact that a dozen of Muslim nations officially approve of China's conduct in Xinjiang?

That's completely irrelevant. Do the people being repressed approve because that's all that matters. And for the record they do not approve of their families being raped and basically held captive by CCP employees despite BS CCP propaganda to the contrary.

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#443
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest, I don't understand what efficiency gains this kind of globalization was supposed to bring anyways... A factory in China is just as efficient as a factory in Spain or USA. Obviously, cheaper workers work for less, but that's not exactly efficiency , (1) more a question of fairness, (2) can be done domestically (low-cost immigrant workers) and (3) there's plenty of cheap workers worldwide, not just in Chi…

What about US based 3m workers going on strike at unfortunate moment?

Exactly. By outsorcing to China, they’re not actually seeking “efficiency”, they’re just seeking to skirt labour rights and other regulations.

Unions and strikes are a political topic, and we should probably figure out how to handle it better, probably some middle ground between fairness and efficiency (I’m not really well versed in the topic), but regardless companies bypassing the discussion completely by just having a factory in China is wrong and anti-competitive.

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're all following the same strategy now because of the countries that didn't follow that strategy taught the rest of us what not to do. Imagine if a world government had responded the way China did. That is, lie about the problem until it gets too big then forcibly lock people into their homes. What reason do we have to think that a world government would do anything different?

> then forcibly lock people into their homes Turns out, that's the right thing to do. Now almost everyone is doing it to some extent. Also: after China stopped pretending there's no problem and locked down Wuhan, it immediately coordinated the rest of the country to support the virus control efforts in Hubei. The western equivalent of that would be if the UN ordered isolation of Italy, and then ordered the rest of th…

>> then forcibly lock people into their homes

> Turns out, that's the right thing to do. Now almost everyone is doing it to some extent.

When I say "forcibly locking people in" I mean welding the doors shut[0]. Last I checked that's not something the rest of us are doing.

> Also: after China stopped pretending there's no problem and locked down Wuhan, it immediately coordinated the rest of the country to support the virus control efforts in Hubei.

Which if they hadn't pretended in the first place, would not have been necessary. So why did they pretend, and why did they stop?

My guess is that the deceit was somehow connected to protecting the Chinese government's legitimacy, and that only once news of the outbreak spread and deceit was untenable did they own up to it.

A world government has every incentive to suppress any information that may challenge it's legitimacy, and no external entities capable of publicizing the truth.

[0] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2020/04/01/coronav...

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you blame them? It was cheaper to outsource than automate, so why wouldn't they have outsourced?

I can't "blame" a corporation, because it's not a person. But they are run by people, those people are the ones crafting the legal and regulatory environment that encourages this behavior, and we can certainly blame them.

I can't blame the workers either. They are driven by incentives, so of course they'll fulfill their incentives. Expecting them to do the right thing without incentivizing them to do so doesn't effect any change. If you want to change them, change their incentives, whether through money, government regulation, or other.

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#446
post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't blame them, just like I can't blame a company for becoming a monopoly. We need to regulate them like we do with antitrust, worker's rights, and other things. The free market unabated is terrible for humanity.

It's worse then that, we all live in a socialist society, it's just a corporate socialism. A free market would be a fantastic start. There is a real lack of competition and innovation in our socialist model.

Yes, a true free market can only exist via governmental regulation, as otherwise, companies tend towards monopolies and collusion. It would be nice to have such a market, but I do wonder how we'll get there with moneyed interests at the door.

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#447
post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN isn't sinking into the gutter calling out a government for doing horrifying things, spreading misinformation, suppressing accurate information, all to save face/embarrassment and keep its economy. People here read alternate sources of news, see the videos leaking out on the Internet, they're very savy and know that any reporting that rely on CCP as primary source of info are bird cage liner. The CCP acted in bad f…

You are proving my point with this bigoted response so please no need to bother 'replying' to my comments. Thanks.

My response is from Chinese people. This is what the ones on the ground in China are saying.

Or are you one of those bigots that can't separate the government from the people? Calling out the CCP has zilch to do with bigotry. Taiwan, HK and Chinese-Americans and diaspora (hence why they got out) aren't the same people and don't endorse the actions of the CCP. Calling out the jailing of journalists, arresting of doctors, and actions like currently rounding up black people in Guangzhou and putting them out in the street. Unless calling out racism by the government authorities is racist? It's as silly as saying calling out British government is calling out all white people, or bigotry towards the Scotish. China is 50+ ethnicities, besides the Han Chinese, so its a dumb argument to say China and race are equivalent, its a border and a government, that's it.

Chinese ex-pats know exactly what's going on there. They still have family there and see what's going on in Chinese social media and what's getting censored.

You can't scream racism and bigotry because someone criticizes a government, that's how we know you're a joke and likely a 50 center.

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#448

At the very least, medical supplies and drugs manufacturing will get pulled back into each country. The 3M spat between Canada and the US makes it abundantly clear that in a time of true crisis, you can't even trust your closest friends when something terrifying happens to the world like this pandemic. Whether it means all manufacturing will move away from China or if it means that they will spread it globally, is an…

I disagree that China has not learned from the last one:

https://www.theguardian.com/global/commentisfree/2020/jan/23...

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0771-1

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI: there was a powerful, contagious flu-like disease circulating already in SE Asia between Dec. 6 and Dec. 15. If anybody in public healthcare seriously wants to know more, contact me and I'll narrow down the dates, symptoms and locations and you can verify if it was corona virus or a different illness.

Fascinating ... the dates Dec. 1, Dec. 6 and Dec. 16 are mentioned in this article, which almost match the flu dates I mentioned above: https://www.nationalreview.com/the-morning-jolt/chinas-devas... Based on those dates, it's possible Covid-19 was on Chinese airliners as early as Dec. 1 - 8. Wuhan has an international airport that connects to Shanghai (Pudong), which is a major international hub. So that moves the o…

Yes, Chinese interneters set the date to mid November when the number of cases exceeded 200, and somebody first put an official notice

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#450
post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the long term, perhaps. But US is still dominant today, and that will not suddenly change next year - the gap is just too great. Besides, China would need to grow its power a lot to even be able to fit the same tier that US does today. And if they can't or don't want to, then the end result is likely a more decentralized world. Not every era is "Pax ..." - there are long gaps in between the fall of the old empire…

China has shitty positioning too. USA was positioned to be a beacon of freedom since it's founding. Meanwhile China is position as what... Authoritarian country that loves to slaughter it's citizens in various ways? That's not exactly a great idea to sell to the world. The only way China can get on top is by holding the rest of the world hostage. Either by military or commerce backed by military. But as all relations…

China's positioning is rapid growth and "social harmony". I'm not saying that they actually deliver on this, but that's how it's being sold.
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