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A (possible) solution to Covid-19

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Re: A (possible) solution to Covid-19

#371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the safety data is not well controlled in this case. There are lots of ways to administer a vaccine, it doesn't have to be injection. Look up the history of vaccination. Starting in the late 18th Century, people used to do this exact thing for early vaccinations: they found a naturally occurring, less pathogenic strain (for instance, cowpox[1] in the days of smallpox), and intentionally exposed people. This is ex…

Safety data can be gained from epidemiology studies. There is more than one way to work out if a treatment is safe and effective.

Epidemiological studies are much poorer than clinical trials. I’d rather have low-N but well controlled clinical trials than nebulous epidemiological studies.

Re: A (possible) solution to Covid-19

#372
I posted and deleted a few comments. I don't know what to make of this and it's getting controversial. If it could be helpful, I'd love to improve it. I just don't know where it fits in ongoing discussions by prominent researchers on analysis of strains and types.

Three things that jump out at me:

a) You'll get more credibility from having a thorough lit review than from listing credentials. Linking to magazine articles from journalists on genetic variations, when there's academic research to cite, is a little bewildering.

b) You don't identify something harmless by just testing asymptomatics. This is counterintuitive, but a great example of the Wason selection task:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wason_selection_task

You would probably want to survey the rate of variants in asymptomatics in a certain community, then compare that with the rate of variants in fatal cases in the same community to look for significant differences (and be fully prepared not to find any significant differences beyond chance, a real and likely possibility).

c) I'm still not sure what the author is specifically recommending we do next. Researchers are looking for functional variants, we don't have one to distribute yet, so we should do more sequencing. Ok, great. From what populations? How many geographic areas? Where do we get the samples? There are bottlenecks in sample collection, how do we overcome those? Given (b), how can we get more samples from fatal cases, to compare virulence to those in the general population? Task overloaded hospitals to send us additional samples from dying patients? Is there another way we can get this info?

I don't want to dismiss this out of hand, this might be a good area for additional focused research. I do think there are some key unanswered questions though, and currently a worrying disconnect with the current state of research on variants.

EDIT: Daniel, I know you're going through the comments here, and some of them have gotten pretty harsh, sorry for that. I genuinely hope you're on to something, and are able to continue to refine the post into a more robust and specific proposal using all this feedback, despite the tenor of some of the comments. That's really the best case for all of us, so good luck.

Re: A (possible) solution to Covid-19

#373

It is commendable to search for solutions to the Corona virus. But the author is doing himself a disservice by saying that tens of millions of people worldwide will die. And why is it a bad thing to have to be vaccinated on a yearly basis, poor African countries have not been hit hard that is a fact. The areas being hit the hardest can afford to be vaccinated yearly and is accustomed to it with the yearly flu shot. O…

You’re ignoring the fact that this virus Is an order of magnitude more lethal than the flu, and I would guess that most individuals in poorer countries skip the vaccine altogether.

It has only been proven lethal for very old and people with chronic illnesses.

Those people should stay at home and practice distancing.

Re: A (possible) solution to Covid-19

#374
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adding to this: While you do not recommend ZJ01 due to the potential for it to mutate back into the original strain, isn't it also quite dangerous? That would likely remain a primary concern for many - we musn't cause large scale harm intentionally. And if we don't know what effects a strain has, it makes it ethically difficult to distribute. From the ZJ01 Medrxiv[1] page you link to: "We found, in our 788 confirmed…

This just rules our using ZJ01. There are other attenuated strains out there that will have deletion mutations that can’t mutate back. We need to go find them.

Sorry if it's a stupid question, but hypothetically, would we be able to engineer rather than find a harmless strain of coronavirus with the spike protein of SARS-CoV-2?

If I understand correctly, antigens identify the virus by its S proteins. Would we be able to use the same methods as" rel="nofollow">https://www.nature.com/articles/nm.3985'>as in this paper to replace the S protein in a harmless cold-like coronavirus with the S protein of SARS-CoV-2, and would then the resulting immunity defend against SARS-CoV-2?

Re: A (possible) solution to Covid-19

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are they already doing that? Is there somewhere I can find the statistics broken out by strain? Or even a list of identifiers of the known strains? From what I've seen, it's been published in some news articles and such that there "might be" different strains. Haven't seen anything particularly solid yet.

Covid-19 is not mutating like other viruses, but it acts differently on different people, and very problematic for people with pre-existing conditions. Also in some cases again not proven it also infected heart muscles, now it’s not clear yet that it’s due to pneumonia or covid-19. In China they tried plasma from recovered patients and that also didn’t yield very good results. Also in some studies they find a correla…

Huh? The key premise of the article is that the SARS-CoV-2 virus is mutating.

Re: A (possible) solution to Covid-19

#376

This entire article is a waste of time from the beginning. The “two strain” theory was debunked the very next day as bad science. http://virological.org/t/response-to-on-the-origin-and-conti... I can’t believe that a month later, this bad science is still being circulated, by a purported PhD and former professor.

I can’t believe you think I am arguing for the “two strain” theory. My proposal has absolutely zero to do with two strains.

> This entire article is a waste of time from the beginning.

The moment I read that I lost my interest in his comment. Anything he is going to write afterward would not matter. He didn't gave sufficient reasons either why he thinks the article is a waste of time. We can safely ignore his opinion. Anyone who is directly reading GP's comment please read the article and decide for yourself.

Re: A (possible) solution to Covid-19

#377

I have posted this again as dang asked me to put it up again. Happy to answer questions about the idea, but I am most interested in find collaborators to make it happen ASAP.

A typo correction: In two places you have "overtime" instead of "over time".

Re: A (possible) solution to Covid-19

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused, the paper that's being debunked in your link: https://academic.oup.com/nsr/advance-article/doi/10.1093/nsr... Is not the same paper he's pointing to as having found a milder strain: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.10.20033944v... What am I missing? Are they both based on a flawed understanding?

Not exactly, but the rebuttal includes: "As of 2nd March 2020, there are 111 nonsynonymous mutations that have been identified in the outbreak, these have been catalogued here in the CoV-GLUE resource 504 and can be visualised in Figure 1. At current, there is no evidence that any of these 111 mutations have any significance in a functional context of within-host infections or transmission rates." The premise that th…

> The premise that there is an "asymptomatic strain" is still theoretically possible but unsubstantiated, despite ongoing investigation.

He doesn’t seem to be arguing that a previously unidentified “asymptomatic strain” - or the effects of such - is currently known. If I understand his reasoning, he’s saying that it’s theoretically possible that a milder strain might exist, and that in order to find and isolate that strain (if it exists) we would need to be blanket testing people in outbreak areas, partitioning those samples by outcome, then sequencing the positive tests.

Once you have a set of sequences from positive tests from people who were and remained asymptomatic, then you can isolate the variants that lead to that and begin testing to see if any of those variants consistently present no (or very limited) symptoms AND confer immunity to the pathogenic strains of 2019-nCoV.

Re: A (possible) solution to Covid-19

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the attenuated live viral vaccines spread. This is one of the reasons they are so effective since they keep herd immunity up. For example, every kid that gets the live polio vaccine spreads it around to their peers and parents.

> All the attenuated live viral vaccines spread. Can you point me to sources supporting that claim? I searched myself, and what I found says that our knowledge is limited to the polio vaccine: "Little attention has been given to vaccine transmission, possibly because transmission is rarely measured and largely unknown in humans except for the oral polio vaccine. Whether transmission is indeed rare for other live vacc…

This is a difficult topic to research these days due to the anti-vax/anti-anti-vax noise. :(

It doesn’t appear that horizontal transfer is absurd, and while I’m not immediately seeing a large body of evidence that it happens all the time, it does seem to be generally accepted that it occurs.

Here’s what I believe to be an informative article on the topic: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3667938/

Re: A (possible) solution to Covid-19

#380
post #259

A naturally attenuated strain would still be regulated. In the US, 21 USC §321(g): > (1) The term "drug" means… (B) articles intended for use in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease in man or other animals; CBER would be the responsible center for the FDA. Other countries have analogous regulations. Could you come to market with a naturally attenuated strain? Yes. Would it take less ti…

Robin Hanson has been covering variolation: http://www.overcomingbias.com/2020/04/variolation-test-desig... and part of the issue is that the FDA is poorly equipped and set up to respond to a pandemic. One obvious solution is to cut through the bureaucracy and make emergency exceptions, but no one with political power in the US seems to know this, or understand it.

There's a lot of differences in risk appetite (and actual risk) from state to state.

Maybe the feds could allow states to get a waiver from FDA regulations if they want to try things like variolation.

This would still require someone at the federal level to stick their neck out a little, but (I think) a lot less than if they were to propose something like this as a federal policy.

We've got a federal system, let's make some use of it.

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