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Simula: A VR window manager for Linux

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Re: Simula: A VR window manager for Linux

#31

Post by kanetw »

stronglikedan wrote: post #29
matsemann wrote: post #19

About eye-strain, how is focusing in a VR headset? Is it always a fixed point given it's really just flat screens, or does one have to focus differently when things are "far away".

To add to your questions - What about old farts with reading glasses, like me? Do they just work with VR, or are they even needed?

I wear glasses and VR is fine for me. I know some people who can't use it with glasses, but I think that's for clearance reasons.

There's prescription lenses for headsets, but they're fairly expensive and IMO only worth it if you use VR a lot.

Re: Simula: A VR window manager for Linux

#32

Post by georgewsinger »

lukifer wrote: post #21
georgewsinger wrote: post #9

In case people are curious what it's like to work in VR, here's a demo of me using Simula: https://youtu.be/FWLuwG91HnI I would argue that working in VR is fundamentally superior to working in PCs/laptops. It's basically 10x the screens, focus, and work immersion. Simula's text quality is also very good (getting around the eye fatigue present in older VR Desktops).

How is the eye fatigue in general? How long can you go in a VR work session? For VR gaming (Oculus Rift), I start to experience mild discomfort after about 30min, which grows severe by 60min. It's hard to envision using VR for a full work day. (My eyes are fairly light-sensitive from laser-eye surgery; not sure how much is saccading, vs. bright light directly in front of the eyes.)

RE eye strain, here are a couple of links showing off Simula's text quality:

https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula/blob/gdwlroots-xwayland/d... https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula/blob/gdwlroots-xwayland/d...

Many early VR Desktops (and VR games) didn't go to special effort to optimize text quality, and I think this has given people a lower than warranted impression of what is possible in VR today. There's no doubt that VR hardware is going to get exponentially lighter/sharper over time, and that these improvements will be welcome, but things are good enough now to put in 1hr+ long sessions without eye strain (at least in my experience as a daily user).

Re: Simula: A VR window manager for Linux

#33

Post by kanetw »

matsemann wrote: post #19

About eye-strain, how is focusing in a VR headset? Is it always a fixed point given it's really just flat screens, or does one have to focus differently when things are "far away".

No idea actually. I haven't noticed any strain or discomfort though so whatever it is is fairly compatible with how your brain works.

Re: Simula: A VR window manager for Linux

#34

Post by georgewsinger »

wdroz wrote: post #10

I think that in 1-2 generations of VR headsets, we will no longer need monitors. For now my HTC vive isn't comparable to my 4k screens.

Agreed that VR isn't comparable to 4K screens (yet), but for what it's worth I regularly put in 1hr+ long SimulaVR sessions with the good ol' 2016 HTC Vive.

Here are a couple of links showing off Simula's text quality:

https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula/blob/gdwlroots-xwayland/d... https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula/blob/gdwlroots-xwayland/d...

Many early VR Desktops (and VR games) didn't go to special effort to optimize text quality, and I think this has given people a lower than warranted impression of what is possible in VR today (even on old headsets).

Re: Simula: A VR window manager for Linux

#35

Post by Lambdanaut »

georgewsinger wrote: post #9

In case people are curious what it's like to work in VR, here's a demo of me using Simula: https://youtu.be/FWLuwG91HnI I would argue that working in VR is fundamentally superior to working in PCs/laptops. It's basically 10x the screens, focus, and work immersion. Simula's text quality is also very good (getting around the eye fatigue present in older VR Desktops).

I saw that you were hacking on... Haskell..? In that video?

Where does Haskell fit in with Godot and Simula?

Re: Simula: A VR window manager for Linux

#36

Post by kanetw »

Lambdanaut wrote: post #35
georgewsinger wrote: post #9

In case people are curious what it's like to work in VR, here's a demo of me using Simula: https://youtu.be/FWLuwG91HnI I would argue that working in VR is fundamentally superior to working in PCs/laptops. It's basically 10x the screens, focus, and work immersion. Simula's text quality is also very good (getting around the eye fatigue present in older VR Desktops).

I saw that you were hacking on... Haskell..? In that video? Where does Haskell fit in with Godot and Simula?

SimulaVR (unrelated to Simula) is written mostly in Haskell, with Godot as the engine.

Re: Simula: A VR window manager for Linux

#37

Post by TooKool4This »

kanetw wrote: post #25
TooKool4This wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't used VR devices too much but I believe the wiggling that you see in VR demos is not present when actually using the device. The device is simply adjusting the perspective to match your head motion and so the actual user is not seeing the wiggling but in the demo it appears that the view is wiggling to the watcher. But I agree that wiggling is off putting. I think VR demos should low-pass filter the output t…

I wonder if a separate camera for pancake with a larger FOV would help, with the translation (e: and rotation) matrix lowpass-filtered from user orientation.

Not sure what you mean by pancake.

But I feel its mostly rotational motion that is perceptible in VR demos rather than translational motion. I suspect that's because a small rotational motion results in a large shift in perspective for objects in the world that are some distance away from the camera while small translational movements don't really result in a significant perspective shift.

Would be interested in seeing what research into human head motion while sitting/standing/walking/etc. shows though.

Re: Simula: A VR window manager for Linux

#38

Post by fractal618 »

emj wrote: post #28
georgewsinger wrote: post #9

In case people are curious what it's like to work in VR, here's a demo of me using Simula: https://youtu.be/FWLuwG91HnI I would argue that working in VR is fundamentally superior to working in PCs/laptops. It's basically 10x the screens, focus, and work immersion. Simula's text quality is also very good (getting around the eye fatigue present in older VR Desktops).

I would not be able to work like that, it would lead to neck strain or wrist pain, if you think about it comes naturally to reposition your body when you are looking in a new direction there is a reason for this. This hurts me because the keyboard locks the shoulders and it's only my heavy head that moves, this is not ergonomical. So being able to fetch up windows so it's perfectly centered above the keyboard would m…

Maybe there should be a harness to suspend us by one ankle while we work

Re: Simula: A VR window manager for Linux

#39

Post by stronglikedan »

kanetw wrote: post #31
stronglikedan wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add to your questions - What about old farts with reading glasses, like me? Do they just work with VR, or are they even needed?

I wear glasses and VR is fine for me. I know some people who can't use it with glasses, but I think that's for clearance reasons. There's prescription lenses for headsets, but they're fairly expensive and IMO only worth it if you use VR a lot.

thanks. Good to know. I'll be sure to bring my reading glasses when I go try on headsets. Something I would have likely neglected to do otherwise.

Re: Simula: A VR window manager for Linux

#40

Post by kanetw »

TooKool4This wrote: post #37
kanetw wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if a separate camera for pancake with a larger FOV would help, with the translation (e: and rotation) matrix lowpass-filtered from user orientation.

Not sure what you mean by pancake. But I feel its mostly rotational motion that is perceptible in VR demos rather than translational motion. I suspect that's because a small rotational motion results in a large shift in perspective for objects in the world that are some distance away from the camera while small translational movements don't really result in a significant perspective shift. Would be interested in seei…

Pancake is the 2D view observers see when they're looking at the monitor (i.e. that what gets recorded).

Yeah, both rotation and translation would be filtered in the idea I had, so that small wiggling motions aren't as visible.

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