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Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

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Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#131

Post by throw_m239339 »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #21
rsweeney21 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nations exist to protect it's citizens. So yeah, as they should, each country is prioritizing their own needs before exporting any surplus to other countries. The challenge is no one really has any idea how much of the supplies they actually need. It's interesting to me that you find this surprising or view it as bad behavior.

States use serving a “nation” as a retroactive justification for doing what they have always done. In a global crisis, selfish actions help nobody.

> In a global crisis, selfish actions help nobody.

Officials are elected to serve the need of their own constituants first and foremost, not foreign interests. There is nothing selfish about that. The American government doesn't have to consult with Canada or Mexico before taking a decision in times of crisis. This is the very core idea behind a representative democracy.

Where politicians failed is with their lack of foresight when it comes to stocking masks and ventilators, they didn't fail because they were "selfish" toward other nations.

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#132

Post by elliekelly »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #100
elliekelly wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some ways it decreases risk though, too. The risk of war, specifically. The US and Chinese governments are far from friends but our economies are much too interconnected to allow either side to instigate too much of a disagreement. For the most part globalization is good but the pandemic has certainly highlighted the value of strategic redundancy or at least an emergency plan B.

Isn't WWI the usual counterargument to globalization reducing the risk of war? Or were the countries back then not interconnected enough ?

That's a good point. Perhaps globalization alone only marginally reduces the risk and it's the combination of globalization + trust (or at least not mistrust) that reduces the likelihood of war.

If that's the case then the US government's efforts to take supplies away from some of our closest allies is even more dangerous and short-sighted than I initially thought.

A month ago I would have said a mask factory in Canada vs. US is nearly equal in terms of national security because Canada could be trusted to help in a time of crisis. I'm sure many Canadians felt the same way. Now I'm not so sure that's true and I certainly don't blame the Canadians.

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#133

Post by vkou »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #100
elliekelly wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some ways it decreases risk though, too. The risk of war, specifically. The US and Chinese governments are far from friends but our economies are much too interconnected to allow either side to instigate too much of a disagreement. For the most part globalization is good but the pandemic has certainly highlighted the value of strategic redundancy or at least an emergency plan B.

Isn't WWI the usual counterargument to globalization reducing the risk of war? Or were the countries back then not interconnected enough ?

No shortage of ink was spilled on the wishful thinking that globalization will prevent future wars... All through the 1910s.

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#134

Post by mikechen233 »

Just today telsa sold 10000 cars in the Shanghai factory in March and Tesla stock jumped as result. I have a feeling that with Europe and US in continue lock down, China is going to support a huge number businesses. Looking at a number of Western business, all cite china has a very important market. Everyone of them earned a ton of money from that market. Some manufacturing will leave china, but if business want to access that market, they will continue to be near that market meaning involve China as part of the supply chain. On side note, ccp and China has brought a lot to Chinese people, wealth, stability, and education. 800 million was lifted out of property in the last 30 years. Chinese middle class is more than the entire US population. As a Chinese person, I no longer has to worry about whether I will have enough food or clothing. Nowadays I am interested which iPhone I can buy and which Nike shoes I like. To say the government doesn't care about the well being of the citizens is dishonest at best. All of this has given and will continue give a massive opportunity to foreign business. Hundreds of billion of dollars of cooperate profits per year. If we cut earnings from China out of companies on SPY, how much is the stock market valuation is going to drop by? So next time if you want to bash and vilify China and ccp using fake news, think about how much China and ccp contributed to your retirement fund. I have more than happy to discuss China and it's policies using facts, data and reason. But it's the smearing and vilification using fake news I cannot stand. And of course it's not perfect in anyway. Internet information regulations and media control is one of them. But I feel people outside don't really understand this country and it's government. They say the government oppresses and doesn't care about the people. Yet a majority of people feels the complete opposite in their daily lives.

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#135

Post by billfruit »

kosievdmerwe wrote: post #50
systemvoltage wrote: post #9

Actually this pandemic has shown some true colors of many nations. 1) US trying to unsuccessfully hoard supplies, issues with the German testing company 2) China trying to use soft power, but the whole drama feels fake. It is good that they are sending supplies (often faulty and not up to the quality, see dutch story around this) but it doesn't feel genuine. 3) European countries are in-fighting for supplies. Switzer…

> 2) China trying to use soft power, but the whole drama feels fake. It is good that they are sending supplies (often faulty and not up to the quality, see dutch story around this) but it doesn't feel genuine. Given that China seems to force countries to pay for PPE the same countries previously donated to China, you're right for being skeptical. https://abc14news.com/2020/04/06/china-forces-italy-to-buy-s...

Some of the PPEs were paid orders placed on Chinese private companies, of course they will have to be paid, since they are being purchased. This is not to be confused with donations of equipment.

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#136

Post by str33t_punk »

ubermon wrote: post #46
systemvoltage wrote: post #9

Actually this pandemic has shown some true colors of many nations. 1) US trying to unsuccessfully hoard supplies, issues with the German testing company 2) China trying to use soft power, but the whole drama feels fake. It is good that they are sending supplies (often faulty and not up to the quality, see dutch story around this) but it doesn't feel genuine. 3) European countries are in-fighting for supplies. Switzer…

2) China trying to use soft power, but the whole drama feels fake. It is good that they are sending supplies (often faulty and not up to the quality, see dutch story around this) but it doesn't feel genuine. I am curious what will be considered not fake and genuine support? Damned if they and damned if they don’t. AFAIK Dutch issued a article clarify the mistake they made which nobody seems to care. I don’t think any…

One reason people don’t trust China’s aid is that the shortage is caused by China.

They bought up the worlds supply of PPE (over 2 billion masks) and nationalized factories owned by foreign companies (such as 3m) so their masks produced stay internal.

It’s almost as if I cornered the food market and then when people were starving I start selling them food but disguising it as a loving donation. People can see through that

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#137

Post by lgleason »

pretendscholar wrote: post #113
lgleason wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that was truly the case it would be cheaper to have manufacturing locally, vs shipping things across the world from China.

Its difficult because japan is not a resource region country. They don't want to reshore production because its costly to source all of the materials they need.

China is not a resource region county for a lot of things it needs produce products either. That is why they import raw materials from places like Africa and are more than happy to help pave roads to make it easier to get things out.

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#138

Post by TeMPOraL »

throw_m239339 wrote: post #107
TeMPOraL wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's interesting to me that you find this surprising or view it as bad behavior. It's not surprising in the sense that it fits the definition of a "nation state". It's surprising because one would think that in XXI century, people understood that global problems require global coordination; competition of selfish actors fails spectacularly in such cases.

> It's surprising because one would think that in XXI century, people understood that global problems require global coordination; competition of selfish actors fails spectacularly in such cases. More globalists isn't going to solve globalism. American politicians answer to their constituants, not the China or India. If it looks like policitians didn't first and foremost prioritize the need of their own citizens who…

> The irony, it's the very definition of economic liberalism and what led to the current paradigm, globalism.

It doesn't mean it's the only path to a global economy.

> The pandemic is only global because trade is global and people can easily travel between countries.

The pandemic wouldn't be anywhere near as severe if there was a coordinated global response.

> the solution is to take back western industrial force from China

For that, you'll have to shut down economic liberalism, because otherwise the forces that caused the move of western industrial force into China will still be present, and will cause it again once the public forgets about the pandemic (i.e. in a year), and beancounters everywhere will be free to optimize the corporate balance sheets once again.

Re: Japan to fund firms to shift production out of China

#139

Post by vkou »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #61
wendyshu wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trade barriers, price controls, stimulus, etc. -- remarkable how fast economic liberalism goes out the window in a crisis.

What I get from this is it's remarkable how inept the model established by 'economic liberalism', with its just-in-time delivery and 'globalized production to cheapest labour zone' is at delivering on people's real needs in time of crisis. It's amazing how quickly the very proposition that we can get by without any state-level macroeconomic planning, -- and that the free market organically produces superior results -…

> What I get from this is it's remarkable how inept the model established by 'economic liberalism', with its just-in-time delivery and 'globalized production to cheapest labour zone' is at delivering on people's real needs in time of crisis.

Indeed. The PPE/toilet paper/tasting kit/flour shortages are becoming farcical at this point. It feels like the Soviet Union, where wonderful pronouncements about the plenitude of _______ are made, but then you discover otherwise at the grocery, or the doctor.

Of course, in 2020, the solution to these problems is rationing.

It's almost as if rationing is the only way to solve these kinds of shortages. But since the rationing is per-shopping visit, people just hoard by hitting up multiple stores in one shopping trip...

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