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Apple Faceshield

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Re: Apple Faceshield

#561

Post by simonh »

nineteen999 wrote: post #555
simonh wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are about a million infected individuals right now, and climbing, and each hospitalised patient in ITU may need these procedures several times a day. An ITU team performing the procedure might consist of 2 to 4 people and the shields should be discarded every time. The number of patients is also rising rapidly, so demand is very high. When you see doctors and nurses in full scrubs with face shields doing their…

> and the shields should be discarded every time Maybe I'm missing something, but the page literally has a section titled "Clean and reuse your face shield" and lists the chemicals that should be used to clean it.

Thats because demand is so high and supply so short that they are being re-used.

Re: Apple Faceshield

#562

Post by brodie »

csours wrote: post #313
droopyEyelids wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

During a wasted youth I poured over hundreds of The Hardy Boys Casefiles, where they'd receive and recover from a traumatic brain injury 3-5 nights a week (getting "knocked out"). Thanks to your comment I now know the other nights, where they were not rendered unconscious by blunt trauma, but rather through a rag of chloroform, they were probably inhaling phosgene too. Those boys were sure putting their futures at ri…

Hah, same. Between The Hardy Boys and silly TV crime dramas I think a lot of kids got the wrong impression about getting "knocked out". It turns out that pretty much anything that can cause unconsciousness is also likely to cause death or serious permanent injury.

But everyone knows a tap on the head causes instant unconsciousness!

Re: Apple Faceshield

#563

Post by lostphilosopher »

nineteen999 wrote: post #555
simonh wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are about a million infected individuals right now, and climbing, and each hospitalised patient in ITU may need these procedures several times a day. An ITU team performing the procedure might consist of 2 to 4 people and the shields should be discarded every time. The number of patients is also rising rapidly, so demand is very high. When you see doctors and nurses in full scrubs with face shields doing their…

> and the shields should be discarded every time Maybe I'm missing something, but the page literally has a section titled "Clean and reuse your face shield" and lists the chemicals that should be used to clean it.

The doctor or nurse probably won't be able to do that process everytime they use the mask. Like other reusable hospital supplies it will be collected somewhere to be cleaned in bulk. The point above is that so many will be used in a short span of time that even a 24 or 12 hour cleaning rotation will not keep up without large numbers being available.

Re: Apple Faceshield

#564

Post by lostphilosopher »

lostphilosopher wrote: post #563
nineteen999 wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and the shields should be discarded every time Maybe I'm missing something, but the page literally has a section titled "Clean and reuse your face shield" and lists the chemicals that should be used to clean it.

The doctor or nurse probably won't be able to do that process everytime they use the mask. Like other reusable hospital supplies it will be collected somewhere to be cleaned in bulk. The point above is that so many will be used in a short span of time that even a 24 or 12 hour cleaning rotation will not keep up without large numbers being available.

Mask => Shield

(Like many, I think I've got "masks" on the brain...)

Re: Apple Faceshield

#565

Post by brodie »

ALittleLight wrote: post #444
seventytwo wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are things called PAPRs which are an enclosed version of what you’re taking about.

I was imagining more of a face shield with a filtered blower at the top blowing air onto the shield. I imagine this would reduce the amount of air coming around the edges of the shield and hopefully increase the effectiveness of the shield. The PAPR definitely looks interesting, and surely more effective, but it has the drawback of probably being less comfortable. I find masks uncomfortable. My face or nose itches. M…

If you’re looking at shields with fans you should just wear a mask. Take some anti-itch medication or ointment beforehand.

Based on what medical professionals are saying, regular shields aren’t going to protect you from normal aerosols. Social distancing is probably better for people coughing near you. And buying shields is only going to increase mortality for hospital workers.

Also, mild discomfort is a small price to pay compared to not infecting and killing people around you.

Re: Apple Faceshield

#566

Post by brodie »

tlrobinson wrote: post #163

Are face shields actually the best we can/should do? Most of the photos of doctors in Wuhan I saw had them wearing goggles: https://www.google.com/search?q=wuhan+doctors&tbm=isch

I think goggles and shields might serve slightly different purposes.

Re: Apple Faceshield

#567

Post by neuronic »

ehsankia wrote: post #527
gowld wrote: post #6

Context: https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/5/21209270/apple-face-shield... “Our first shipment was delivered to Kaiser hospital facilities in the Santa Clara Valley this past week, and the feedback from doctors was very positive,” Cook says. “These pack flat, one hundred per box. Each shield is assembled in less than two minutes and is fully adjustable. We’re sourcing materials and manufacturing in the US and China.” A…

I'm curious, I've been seeing a lot of calls for 3D printing similar looking Face shields , which are very different from face masks. What is the use for this? Are they actually useful to health care professionals? Face mask + goggles fully covers the 3 places the virus can enter (mouth, nose and eyes), but these shields seem like they would be more useful for people who have the virus than those who don't.

COVID-19 is very likely only marginally spread by aerosols (I take this from Robert Koch Institute, Germany information [1]), approximately 10% by contact spread and mainly by direct transmission of droplets.

Faceshield therefore protects from the main transmission vector. It's not impossible to get infected otherwise, simply much less likely. Your main enemy are getting coughed/sneezed/talked at in close proximity.

Surface spread is likely also extremely limited (source: Prof. Hendrik Streecke who continues to study COVID-19 in the German epicenter of Heinsberg [2]). Money quote from source:

> "Wir waren in einem Haushalt, wo viele hochinfektiöse Menschen gelebt haben, und trotzdem haben wir kein lebendes Virus von irgendeiner Oberfläche bekommen.“

English: "We have studied a household where highly infectious individuals resided and have still been unable to find any living virus on any surface."

All virus residues found have been dead virus material.

[1, German] https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/N/Neuartiges_Coronavirus...

[2, German] https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/covid-19-wie-lange-sich-das-c...

Re: Apple Faceshield

#568

Post by brodie »

roenxi wrote: post #537
brodie wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s okay to admit you’re wrong. It’s okay to not understand everything. It’s okay to defer to experts. So many people on HN and in tech have the same attitude that if they just spend 5 minutes thinking about something then they can intuit an answer and that they must be right. This is a dangerous way of thinking. If anyone took what you’ve been saying as correct they’d be endangering themselves and depriving medical…

But I'm getting my opinions from the experts? See [0]. They recommend covering your face. I agree with them that cloth is more effective than a plastic shield but I'd expect a plastic shield to still be better than nothing. You've got to try and stop droplets from leaving your mouth and reaching other people. A face shield would be better than failing to create a makeshift covering from a shirt for most people and it…

I don’t think it’s reasonable to stockpile given the huge demand for them by medical professionals.

I also can’t imagine a situation where you can order and wait for a shield but don’t have the time or resources to get a surgical mask or cloth.

And obviously the shield alone isn’t going to protect you from particles. And it might not help slow the spread if you’re infected yourself.

But again I’m speculating. If the health professionals say they need them and the public doesn’t, I’ll defer to them. I’m not an expert in their field and I don’t want to pretend to be or cause anyone to think I am.

Re: Apple Faceshield

#569

Post by DanBC »

jnbiche wrote: post #500
uxp wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about the money. PPE like face shields are specifically used during procedures that involve significant bodily fluid, like intubation, which is the process of pulling or pushing a tube down a patient's esophagus. Going to to the grocery store does not require a shield. Secondly disposable medical equipment, when used properly within a healthcare environment, is extremely wasteful. For most consumable items u…

> pulling or pushing a tube down a patient's esophagus No, that's another procedure. Intubating respiratory patients involves targeting the trachea and avoiding the esophagus. An esophageal intubation can be Very Bad. That said, as an early advocate for face masks for the general public, I'm in 100% agreement that face shields are pointless for the general public. We don't need them.

What's the point of wearing a face mask if you're going to leave your eyes unprotected?

Re: Apple Faceshield

#570

Post by DanBC »

brodie wrote: post #533
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> like intubation, which is the process of pulling or pushing a tube down a patient's esophagus. Hopefully you are intubating a patient’s trachea and not not the esophagus.

Does esophageal intubation happen much? I was intubated a month ago due to non-COVID respiratory failure. I also ended up getting pneumonia but no one knows when I got it. If that happened to me would my medical team have told me? Speaking generally obviously since you don’t know my case of course.

> If that happened to me would my medical team have told me?

I don't know where you are. In England healthcare professionals and their organisations have a statutory "Duty of Candour". They have to tell you when something went wrong, why it went wrong, what they're going to try to do to fix it for you, and what they're doing to prevent it happening again in future.

https://www.cqc.org.uk/sites/default/files/Duty-of-Candour-2...

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