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A New York Power Plant Is Mining $50K Worth of Bitcoin a Day

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Re: A New York Power Plant Is Mining $50K Worth of Bitcoin a Day

#91

Post by DagAgren »

thebean11 wrote: post #90
DagAgren wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are not two different things. They are one and the same, in a regular currency. Bitcoin implements only half of it, and pretends this is just as good. It is not. It is just gambling.

> Bitcoin implements only half of it What does that mean? That the dollar implements the entirety of the economy? No currency "creates value" I understand what you mean by saying bitcoin is zero sum, but I'm asking for an explanation of how that's any different (for example how is the dollar NOT zero sum)? I don't think you've explained what, in your opinion, is the differentiating characteristic here.

The dollar does not exist on its own. It is an integral part of the US economy. The two can not be separated. The dollar represents, in some sense, a unit of the US economy.

Bitcoin has nothing like this.

Re: A New York Power Plant Is Mining $50K Worth of Bitcoin a Day

#92

Post by thebean11 »

DagAgren wrote: post #91
thebean11 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bitcoin implements only half of it What does that mean? That the dollar implements the entirety of the economy? No currency "creates value" I understand what you mean by saying bitcoin is zero sum, but I'm asking for an explanation of how that's any different (for example how is the dollar NOT zero sum)? I don't think you've explained what, in your opinion, is the differentiating characteristic here.

The dollar does not exist on its own. It is an integral part of the US economy. The two can not be separated. The dollar represents, in some sense, a unit of the US economy. Bitcoin has nothing like this.

Bitcoin could theoretically become an integral part of some economy (or a smaller part of every economy). Then by your standards it would no longer have a problem?

It seems like a catch 22 you're presenting. It's a bad currency because nobody uses it, and nobody uses it because it's a bad currency. To me that's kind of a circular argument, and the same argument could be made about any early-stage network (the internet, facebook, etc.)

Re: A New York Power Plant Is Mining $50K Worth of Bitcoin a Day

#93

Post by DagAgren »

thebean11 wrote: post #92
DagAgren wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The dollar does not exist on its own. It is an integral part of the US economy. The two can not be separated. The dollar represents, in some sense, a unit of the US economy. Bitcoin has nothing like this.

Bitcoin could theoretically become an integral part of some economy (or a smaller part of every economy). Then by your standards it would no longer have a problem? It seems like a catch 22 you're presenting. It's a bad currency because nobody uses it, and nobody uses it because it's a bad currency. To me that's kind of a circular argument, and the same argument could be made about any early-stage network (the interne…

No, this can not be changed. It doesn't matter how many people use it or not. It very deliberately, by design and implementation, does not represent anything at all. This would not change even if an entire country used it (putting aside that it is not technically capable of doing so).

Re: A New York Power Plant Is Mining $50K Worth of Bitcoin a Day

#94

Post by thebean11 »

DagAgren wrote: post #93
thebean11 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin could theoretically become an integral part of some economy (or a smaller part of every economy). Then by your standards it would no longer have a problem? It seems like a catch 22 you're presenting. It's a bad currency because nobody uses it, and nobody uses it because it's a bad currency. To me that's kind of a circular argument, and the same argument could be made about any early-stage network (the interne…

No, this can not be changed. It doesn't matter how many people use it or not. It very deliberately, by design and implementation, does not represent anything at all. This would not change even if an entire country used it (putting aside that it is not technically capable of doing so).

> This would not change even if an entire country used it (putting aside that it is not technically capable of doing so).

This is the point you need to expand on. When I asked what the difference between bitcoin and the dollar is, you said the defining difference is that the dollar is used by a country. So if that's not the difference what is?

If bitcoin was adopted, would it not also represent a unit of the economy?

Does your argument boil down to "it's not officially backed by country therefor it cannot serve as a medium of exchange"? If so I ask you WHY that prevents it from being a medium of exchange?

I really don't follow the "negative sum" argument. It seems like that applies to every currency, so it's kind of an irrelevant point

Re: A New York Power Plant Is Mining $50K Worth of Bitcoin a Day

#95

Post by DagAgren »

thebean11 wrote: post #94
DagAgren wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this can not be changed. It doesn't matter how many people use it or not. It very deliberately, by design and implementation, does not represent anything at all. This would not change even if an entire country used it (putting aside that it is not technically capable of doing so).

> This would not change even if an entire country used it (putting aside that it is not technically capable of doing so). This is the point you need to expand on. When I asked what the difference between bitcoin and the dollar is, you said the defining difference is that the dollar is used by a country. So if that's not the difference what is? If bitcoin was adopted, would it not also represent a unit of the economy?…

It is not that it is USED by a country. It is that it is an INTEGRAL PART of the country's economic policy. The country can, as part of managing its economy, also manage the currency.

Bitcoin is not managed this way. It has rules set in stone it follows entirely on its own, without external input. This means it exists in isolation, unaffected by whatever economic activity takes place around it. This is entirely unlike a national currency.

Re: A New York Power Plant Is Mining $50K Worth of Bitcoin a Day

#96

Post by thebean11 »

DagAgren wrote: post #95
thebean11 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This would not change even if an entire country used it (putting aside that it is not technically capable of doing so). This is the point you need to expand on. When I asked what the difference between bitcoin and the dollar is, you said the defining difference is that the dollar is used by a country. So if that's not the difference what is? If bitcoin was adopted, would it not also represent a unit of the economy?…

It is not that it is USED by a country. It is that it is an INTEGRAL PART of the country's economic policy. The country can, as part of managing its economy, also manage the currency. Bitcoin is not managed this way. It has rules set in stone it follows entirely on its own, without external input. This means it exists in isolation, unaffected by whatever economic activity takes place around it. This is entirely unlik…

> The country can, as part of managing its economy, also manage the currency.

You think a requirement for currency is that the country using it can manage it? What about all the non-US countries that use the dollar? They absolutely cannot manage their currency. What about in the past when the US and others were on the gold standard? There are a million counterexamples.

And again, let me reiterate (because it seems we're drifting away from the point here) that we were originally discussing whether bitcoin was "negative sum". I'm telling you that if it has utility (like any other currency) there is value being created.

> This means it exists in isolation, unaffected by whatever economic activity takes place around it.

I don't really know what that means, everything is subject to outside economic forces.

Re: A New York Power Plant Is Mining $50K Worth of Bitcoin a Day

#97

Post by DagAgren »

thebean11 wrote: post #96
DagAgren wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not that it is USED by a country. It is that it is an INTEGRAL PART of the country's economic policy. The country can, as part of managing its economy, also manage the currency. Bitcoin is not managed this way. It has rules set in stone it follows entirely on its own, without external input. This means it exists in isolation, unaffected by whatever economic activity takes place around it. This is entirely unlik…

> The country can, as part of managing its economy, also manage the currency. You think a requirement for currency is that the country using it can manage it? What about all the non-US countries that use the dollar? They absolutely cannot manage their currency. What about in the past when the US and others were on the gold standard? There are a million counterexamples. And again, let me reiterate (because it seems we…

They moved away from the gold standard for some pretty good reasons. And countries don't use other currencies unless they are in a very bad position and have no other choice. Bitcoin is gleefully copying all the bad features of these kinds of systems, and not really any of the benefits.

And I have explained why it is negative sum. It is an exceedingly simple system and easy to analyse. There is no value creation involved at any point. Any value creation happens outside of the bitcoin economy.

There are only three factors:

1. People putting real money into markets. 2. People taking real money out of markets. 3. Exchanges taking a cut of that real money.

Nothing else involves actual value.

The combination of 3 and the fact that miners are allowed to do 2 without transferring any value in means that for the reason of the users, the sum is negative.

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