A New York Power Plant Is Mining $50K Worth of Bitcoin a Day • Hacker News Board

Re: A New York Power Plant Is Mining $50K Worth of Bitcoin a Day

#81

Post by DagAgren » Sun, Apr 05, 2020, 6:34 PM UTC

thebean11 wrote: post #78

DagAgren wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many decades is it going to take for bitcoin to not be “early stage”?

Maybe never, but just dismissing the technology as worse than useless seems a bit irrational. If your position is that the entire crypto space is just delusion, it's probably good to take a step back and consider that you are the one that's missing something.

I am not actually doing any of those things, even though they would all be fair to say.

I am saying that the economic system built around bitcoin is, by definition, negative-sum. And there is nothing about the technology that can change that.

Re: A New York Power Plant Is Mining $50K Worth of Bitcoin a Day

#82

Post by MadSudaca » Sun, Apr 05, 2020, 6:42 PM UTC

jessaustin wrote: post #80

MadSudaca wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All is a strong word. This implies that since 2009, no protocol has emerged which is able to overcome some of Bitcoin’s pitfalls, or has different trade-offs that place it ahead for some specific usecases, i.a. day-to-day use cryptocurrency.

Yes, that is implied by the dominance of bitcoin. If a competitive protocol had emerged, we would expect that someone could cite it as an example ITT.

You'd be surprised.

Re: A New York Power Plant Is Mining $50K Worth of Bitcoin a Day

#83

Post by thebean11 » Sun, Apr 05, 2020, 11:30 PM UTC

DagAgren wrote: post #81

thebean11 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe never, but just dismissing the technology as worse than useless seems a bit irrational. If your position is that the entire crypto space is just delusion, it's probably good to take a step back and consider that you are the one that's missing something.

I am not actually doing any of those things, even though they would all be fair to say. I am saying that the economic system built around bitcoin is, by definition, negative-sum. And there is nothing about the technology that can change that.

Can you give an example of why an economy using bitcoin would be negative sum? If I'm producing widgets and transacting in crypto, value (widgets) are created, the transaction medium seems irrelevant to me.

I don't actually think switching exclusively to a deflationary currency is a good idea, but I don't buy that it creates a situation where value can only be destroyed..

Re: A New York Power Plant Is Mining $50K Worth of Bitcoin a Day

#84

Post by andirk » Mon, Apr 06, 2020, 2:21 AM UTC

renewiltord wrote: post #56

speedgoose wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people living from Bitcoin are so few that they don't really matter. I'm sure many of them would find another well paid occupation shortly after and I wouldn't be sorry for the ones that would have to reduce the costs of their lifestyle. I do think social shaming is very powerful, but it must be used correctly. Shaming Bitcoin professionals is fine in my opinion.

I don't think it will be effective. Are you interested in laying a bet with some time-frame? You don't have to be, but I find that it clarifies my priors appropriately.

Your bet can be in a Ethereum smart contract based on a date and BTC/USD price.

Re: A New York Power Plant Is Mining $50K Worth of Bitcoin a Day

#85

Post by DagAgren » Mon, Apr 06, 2020, 7:57 AM UTC

thebean11 wrote: post #83

DagAgren wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not actually doing any of those things, even though they would all be fair to say. I am saying that the economic system built around bitcoin is, by definition, negative-sum. And there is nothing about the technology that can change that.

Can you give an example of why an economy using bitcoin would be negative sum? If I'm producing widgets and transacting in crypto, value (widgets) are created, the transaction medium seems irrelevant to me. I don't actually think switching exclusively to a deflationary currency is a good idea, but I don't buy that it creates a situation where value can only be destroyed..

The only input of wealth is people buying tokens on the market. The only output is people selling tokens on the market. There is a constant drain of this wealth from both market fees and from miners minting new coins and cashing them out.

There is no wealth creation anywhere else in this system. There are only these factors, and they are negative-sum, except for market operators and miners.

If you are producing widgets on the side, that is entirely unrelated to the token market. You can do that with any currency, and it is entirely orthogonal to the tokens. You are not creating wealth within that market, you are creating it outside that market, and possibly transferring it into as a separate step, to be siphoned off by market operators and miners.

Re: A New York Power Plant Is Mining $50K Worth of Bitcoin a Day

#86

Post by thebean11 » Mon, Apr 06, 2020, 3:48 PM UTC

DagAgren wrote: post #85

thebean11 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give an example of why an economy using bitcoin would be negative sum? If I'm producing widgets and transacting in crypto, value (widgets) are created, the transaction medium seems irrelevant to me. I don't actually think switching exclusively to a deflationary currency is a good idea, but I don't buy that it creates a situation where value can only be destroyed..

The only input of wealth is people buying tokens on the market. The only output is people selling tokens on the market. There is a constant drain of this wealth from both market fees and from miners minting new coins and cashing them out. There is no wealth creation anywhere else in this system. There are only these factors, and they are negative-sum, except for market operators and miners. If you are producing widge…

Maybe I misunderstood what you meant by "the economic system built around bitcoin", I thought you meant "the economy if bitcoin were adopted would be negative sum".

Now that I understand your point: how is this different from any currency? Currencies are a medium of exchange, by definition they don't have intrinsic value. The value is defined by what you can buy. They are simply a convenient accounting system for value, not the source of value.

How does your argument not apply to every other currency?

Re: A New York Power Plant Is Mining $50K Worth of Bitcoin a Day

#87

Post by DagAgren » Mon, Apr 06, 2020, 4:22 PM UTC

thebean11 wrote: post #86

DagAgren wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only input of wealth is people buying tokens on the market. The only output is people selling tokens on the market. There is a constant drain of this wealth from both market fees and from miners minting new coins and cashing them out. There is no wealth creation anywhere else in this system. There are only these factors, and they are negative-sum, except for market operators and miners. If you are producing widge…

Maybe I misunderstood what you meant by "the economic system built around bitcoin", I thought you meant "the economy if bitcoin were adopted would be negative sum". Now that I understand your point: how is this different from any currency? Currencies are a medium of exchange, by definition they don't have intrinsic value. The value is defined by what you can buy. They are simply a convenient accounting system for val…

Currencies do not exist in a vacuum, like bitcoin, it is an instrument of an entire country's economy. There is wealth created inside that economy, unlike bitcoin.

Re: A New York Power Plant Is Mining $50K Worth of Bitcoin a Day

#88

Post by thebean11 » Mon, Apr 06, 2020, 4:49 PM UTC

DagAgren wrote: post #87

thebean11 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I misunderstood what you meant by "the economic system built around bitcoin", I thought you meant "the economy if bitcoin were adopted would be negative sum". Now that I understand your point: how is this different from any currency? Currencies are a medium of exchange, by definition they don't have intrinsic value. The value is defined by what you can buy. They are simply a convenient accounting system for val…

Currencies do not exist in a vacuum, like bitcoin, it is an instrument of an entire country's economy. There is wealth created inside that economy, unlike bitcoin.

Right that's exactly my point, you're critiquing bitcoin as an alternative to the "economy" part, but that's not something it has ever claimed to be. It's an alternative for the "currency" part.

Re: A New York Power Plant Is Mining $50K Worth of Bitcoin a Day

#89

Post by DagAgren » Mon, Apr 06, 2020, 6:18 PM UTC

thebean11 wrote: post #88

DagAgren wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Currencies do not exist in a vacuum, like bitcoin, it is an instrument of an entire country's economy. There is wealth created inside that economy, unlike bitcoin.

Right that's exactly my point, you're critiquing bitcoin as an alternative to the "economy" part, but that's not something it has ever claimed to be. It's an alternative for the "currency" part.

Those are not two different things. They are one and the same, in a regular currency.

Bitcoin implements only half of it, and pretends this is just as good. It is not. It is just gambling.

Re: A New York Power Plant Is Mining $50K Worth of Bitcoin a Day

#90

Post by thebean11 » Mon, Apr 06, 2020, 8:39 PM UTC

DagAgren wrote: post #89

thebean11 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right that's exactly my point, you're critiquing bitcoin as an alternative to the "economy" part, but that's not something it has ever claimed to be. It's an alternative for the "currency" part.

Those are not two different things. They are one and the same, in a regular currency. Bitcoin implements only half of it, and pretends this is just as good. It is not. It is just gambling.

> Bitcoin implements only half of it

What does that mean? That the dollar implements the entirety of the economy? No currency "creates value"

I understand what you mean by saying bitcoin is zero sum, but I'm asking for an explanation of how that's any different (for example how is the dollar NOT zero sum)? I don't think you've explained what, in your opinion, is the differentiating characteristic here.