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What concept would improve everybody's cognitive toolkit? Kayfabe (2011)

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Re: What concept would improve everybody's cognitive toolkit? Kayfabe (2011)

#71

Post by __s »

tryitnow wrote: post #14
vearwhershuh wrote: post #6

I suppose it's a worthwhile concept. You can certainly look at professional politics, corporate messaging and the financial crises, basically all elite-preservation systems, through a kayfabe lens. On the other hand, I think everyone would be better off reading Propaganda, by Bernays. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_(book) It's short.

I don't know. I just don't see it. Unlike in professional wrestling politicians, corporations, etc have real conflicts over zero sum games. Of course, there are situations where there's are incentives to cooperate. As for his critique of neoclassical economics' reliance on perfect information - that's already been addressed by many economists, Stiglitz, etc. It's frankly banal to even bring it up any longer. I just d…

> have real conflicts over zero sum games

No. Neither side wants the world to crumble tomorrow (I hope). Therefore it is not zero sum

Similarly, energy from the sun isn't going to happen or not, so there's plenty of wealth being left on the table so that entropy isn't a good argument for zero sum

"zero sum" is a hateful philosophy. It means I'd kill your children because if that's terrible for you it must be oppositely great for me

aside: realized that "competing for survival where only one can get out" isn't even enough to be zero-sum if both can die. Here's a "Gladiator's Dilemma": if both choose to fight, both die. If neither chooses to fight, both die. If only one chooses to fight, the other dies. This game is not zero-sum, as neither side necessarily gains anything by the other's death

Re: What concept would improve everybody's cognitive toolkit? Kayfabe (2011)

#72

Post by trevyn »

darkerside wrote: post #69
motohagiography wrote: post #54

The writer was a guest on Rogan this weekend, and he was very engaging, he did wander a bit. He has a particular kind of breadth-first associative intelligence that can cause listeners to become almost hypnotized by all the open cognitive loops his conversation creates, not unlike the kayfabe concept he's touting. Similar things come up in the theory of musical composition where you create and resolve "tension," and…

> When you think about it, how our mind works is fundamentally the only actual problem. Everything else is just an artifact of it. I think this nails it and is really the main thrust of the kayfabe analogy. It's also something I came to understand a few years ago, and have since had a lot of trouble getting others to understand the concept.

A bit of both obviously, but is this more “how our mind works” or “how our mind works while running the software loaded into it since birth”? (Where the range of easily available software options is surprisingly non-diverse in practice.)

Re: What concept would improve everybody's cognitive toolkit? Kayfabe (2011)

#73

Post by dmurray »

cmgxyz wrote: post #43
qznc wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have much bigger illusions than wrestling. Ironically, a piece of fiction made the point much clearer to me: “All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable." REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE. "Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—" YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU…

> TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE This has always stuck with me. I’m not well enough read to know if he borrowed it from somewhere, but I’m not sure Terry Pratchett ever wrote finer words than those. Beautifully concise and apt summary of the human condition.

A variation of that quote is in a book by Robert Ardrey in 1961:

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Robert_Ardrey

Re: What concept would improve everybody's cognitive toolkit? Kayfabe (2011)

#74

Post by BrandonM »

cronix wrote: post #16
futureproofd wrote: post #11

Eric Weinstein most recently explained his Kayfabe theory on the Joe Rogan podcast, in this Episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wf0_nMaQ6tA He also makes reference to this particular article.

A bit shorter, and more focused from a different interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsgWSPWX-6A

I found the video to be worthwhile overall. For anyone looking for the Kayfabe-specific part, though, it starts at about 23:40: https://youtu.be/bsgWSPWX-6A?t=1420

Re: What concept would improve everybody's cognitive toolkit? Kayfabe (2011)

#75

Post by vntx »

qznc wrote: post #31
alexpetralia wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Put simply, one might think of kayfabe as a consensus on the agreement of illusion; a suspension of reality. Why would anyone do this? For one, suspended reality allows us to be creative and simulate outcomes that otherwise would not occur in real life. But also, it can occur under information asymmetry. If something seems fake to me, but I am not sure if _you_ believe it is fake or not (and vice versa), we both migh…

We have much bigger illusions than wrestling. Ironically, a piece of fiction made the point much clearer to me: “All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable." REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE. "Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—" YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU…

I need to start reading Discworld.

Re: What concept would improve everybody's cognitive toolkit? Kayfabe (2011)

#76

Post by Talanes »

afarrell wrote: post #65
DubiousPusher wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess it kind of depends on how much you believe in the conspiracy of elites. But even in the weak form of that conspiracy, it seems to me the exchange of people and ideas between think tanks, journalism, lobbyists, campaigns, consultancies and financial imstitutions does operate a lot according to this concept. I guess regardless I think the idea is not to try to find exact examples of this but to understand that…

What would help me is more illustration of the line between kayfabe and decency. It seems like the line is "The audience is misled about the actual social norms". When olympic wrestlers refuse to stab each other, it is not kayfabe because the audience doesn't expect that. The Christmas Truce and various anti-latrine-bombing truces were kayfabe because the audience was British and German high command and these were do…

I think you're a little too hung up on the audience metaphor.

> Perhaps confusing battles between "freshwater" Chicago macro economists and Ivy league "Saltwater" theorists could be best understood as happening within a single "orthodox promotion" given that both groups suffered no injury from failing (equally) to predict the recent financial crisis.

The Kayfabe element is that two "competing" schools of thought are primarily concerned with protecting the shared status of "orthodox" economics over outside theories.

Re: What concept would improve everybody's cognitive toolkit? Kayfabe (2011)

#78

Post by softwaredoug »

AI is a kind of kayfabe?

- Marketing depts want to sell AI solutions as it’s higher perceived value

- Execs/managers want to check an AI checkbox to show their using the latest tech

- Practioners want to grow AI skills to find interesting opportunities and stand out from regular devs

- Academia wants to talk up their AI solution to get more attention and funding (and find jobs!)

- The media wants to write about robots taking over the world

Whether or not there’s real value when any particular machine learning solution on any given domain problem is seen as less important than the signaling that we’re all using cutting edge tech. We all just participate in the mutual deception.

Re: What concept would improve everybody's cognitive toolkit? Kayfabe (2011)

#79

Post by baxtr »

Could this not be summarized as “organized fake rivalries to create entertainment while the audience doesn’t care”. Thus, it’s not applicable to politics unless it’s organized. This is not an emergent system property, but must be designed and organized in order to happen.

Re: What concept would improve everybody's cognitive toolkit? Kayfabe (2011)

#80

Post by sigil »

Eric Weinstein is a delight to listen to: a polymath, a contrarian, a great interviewer, really gifted verbally. I'm a Portal subscriber and I've listened to his Rogan interviews all the way through. That said...

I have the sinking feeling that you're right about the breadth-first thing, and it's about to become a bigger issue. Back in the 80s Weinstein was working on an alternative Grand Unified Theory. When his work was marginalized, he never really got over it, and he's now using his platform (an important platform for many other reasons!) to try and right that wrong. To that end, he just published a 2013 talk he gave at Oxford on this theory. [0]

What he has not published in all these years, afaik, is an actual math paper describing his theory. This is the mark of a charlatan. I fear for Eric, and for all the other positive things springing up around The Portal, if it's discovered he lacks the depth and rigor we've all been assuming he has.

In other words, he could turn out to be not just a "breadth-first associative thinker," but someone who lacks the self-awareness to know when he's out of his depth; a dangerous know-it-all. Eric if you're reading this: publish the paper the damn paper -- with the help of a mathematician or physicist if needed -- or drop it.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7rd04KzLcg

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