Eric Weinstein most recently explained his Kayfabe theory on the Joe Rogan podcast, in this Episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wf0_nMaQ6tA He also makes reference to this particular article.
What concept would improve everybody's cognitive toolkit? Kayfabe (2011)
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Re: What concept would improve everybody's cognitive toolkit? Kayfabe (2011)
#12Upvoted due to the interesting story, but the point is conceptually unclear (at least to me, but I'm quite slow) how would this improve my cognitive toolkit? I understand the (one) example presented apart from wrestling, but it is not quite obvious that the actual framework of Kayfabe immediately maps to it. It feels like there are easier constructions that would explain this exactly as well, if not better (perhaps m…
Eric is describing an emergent phenomenon in a particular system of politics that is often invisible to an outsider.
It upgrades one's cognitive toolkit by allowing someone reason in the second order (Assuming Kayfabe) vs. the first order (Taking things at face value).
If you can spot Kayfabe and realize that certain rivalries exist for the sole purpose of propping each other up, you realize that the degrees of freedom are far greater than it seems.
Re: What concept would improve everybody's cognitive toolkit? Kayfabe (2011)
#13I suppose it's a worthwhile concept. You can certainly look at professional politics, corporate messaging and the financial crises, basically all elite-preservation systems, through a kayfabe lens. On the other hand, I think everyone would be better off reading Propaganda, by Bernays. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_(book) It's short.
Yes, I ought to read that.
From the Wikipedia article:
> On the other hand, writers such as Marvin Olasky justify Bernays as killing democracy in order to save it. In this way, the presence of an elite, faceless persuasion constituted the only plausible way to prevent authoritarian control.
That last sentence makes no sense to me. Why wouldn't authoritarian governments use propaganda?
Re: What concept would improve everybody's cognitive toolkit? Kayfabe (2011)
#14I suppose it's a worthwhile concept. You can certainly look at professional politics, corporate messaging and the financial crises, basically all elite-preservation systems, through a kayfabe lens. On the other hand, I think everyone would be better off reading Propaganda, by Bernays. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_(book) It's short.
I don't know. I just don't see it.
Unlike in professional wrestling politicians, corporations, etc have real conflicts over zero sum games. Of course, there are situations where there's are incentives to cooperate.
As for his critique of neoclassical economics' reliance on perfect information - that's already been addressed by many economists, Stiglitz, etc. It's frankly banal to even bring it up any longer.
I just don't see this concept adding much value to a conceptual toolkit. Whenever I try to apply it, it feels forced and it seems simpler concepts do the job just fine.
For example, it's easier to just assume that sometimes competitors finds situations where it makes sense to cooperate.
And it's simpler to assume that even staunch enemies want to appear "gentlemanly" at times, either in public or behind the scenes.
Kayfabe seems worst that useless to me. It seems to violate Occam's razor. It offers an elaborate explanation where a simply explanation would be just as good.
Re: What concept would improve everybody's cognitive toolkit? Kayfabe (2011)
#15Upvoted due to the interesting story, but the point is conceptually unclear (at least to me, but I'm quite slow) how would this improve my cognitive toolkit? I understand the (one) example presented apart from wrestling, but it is not quite obvious that the actual framework of Kayfabe immediately maps to it. It feels like there are easier constructions that would explain this exactly as well, if not better (perhaps m…
Eric is describing an emergent phenomenon in a particular system of politics that is often invisible to an outsider. It upgrades one's cognitive toolkit by allowing someone reason in the second order (Assuming Kayfabe) vs. the first order (Taking things at face value). If you can spot Kayfabe and realize that certain rivalries exist for the sole purpose of propping each other up, you realize that the degrees of freed…
Let's be specific.
This applies to the Democratic and Republican parties in the US.
Re: What concept would improve everybody's cognitive toolkit? Kayfabe (2011)
#16Eric Weinstein most recently explained his Kayfabe theory on the Joe Rogan podcast, in this Episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wf0_nMaQ6tA He also makes reference to this particular article.
A bit shorter, and more focused from a different interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsgWSPWX-6A
Re: What concept would improve everybody's cognitive toolkit? Kayfabe (2011)
#17I suppose it's a worthwhile concept. You can certainly look at professional politics, corporate messaging and the financial crises, basically all elite-preservation systems, through a kayfabe lens. On the other hand, I think everyone would be better off reading Propaganda, by Bernays. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_(book) It's short.
Yes, I ought to read that. From the Wikipedia article: > On the other hand, writers such as Marvin Olasky justify Bernays as killing democracy in order to save it. In this way, the presence of an elite, faceless persuasion constituted the only plausible way to prevent authoritarian control. That last sentence makes no sense to me. Why wouldn't authoritarian governments use propaganda?
It appears to be saying "authoritarian governments can use both direct persuasion and faceless persuasion. Democracies can't use the former, and can't use the latter unless they allow themselves to by the methods shown here."
Direct persuasion would be something akin to Weber's charismatic authority: the typical cult of personality stuff. A representative democracy, not having its identity tied to one singular leader, can't do that.
Re: What concept would improve everybody's cognitive toolkit? Kayfabe (2011)
#18I suppose it's a worthwhile concept. You can certainly look at professional politics, corporate messaging and the financial crises, basically all elite-preservation systems, through a kayfabe lens. On the other hand, I think everyone would be better off reading Propaganda, by Bernays. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_(book) It's short.
Yes, I ought to read that. From the Wikipedia article: > On the other hand, writers such as Marvin Olasky justify Bernays as killing democracy in order to save it. In this way, the presence of an elite, faceless persuasion constituted the only plausible way to prevent authoritarian control. That last sentence makes no sense to me. Why wouldn't authoritarian governments use propaganda?
He thought that they would, but that the smart west would out propagandize and that our better natures would be convinced to win out.
Re: What concept would improve everybody's cognitive toolkit? Kayfabe (2011)
#19Upvoted due to the interesting story, but the point is conceptually unclear (at least to me, but I'm quite slow) how would this improve my cognitive toolkit? I understand the (one) example presented apart from wrestling, but it is not quite obvious that the actual framework of Kayfabe immediately maps to it. It feels like there are easier constructions that would explain this exactly as well, if not better (perhaps m…
Put simply, one might think of kayfabe as a consensus on the agreement of illusion; a suspension of reality. Why would anyone do this? For one, suspended reality allows us to be creative and simulate outcomes that otherwise would not occur in real life. But also, it can occur under information asymmetry. If something seems fake to me, but I am not sure if _you_ believe it is fake or not (and vice versa), we both migh…
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Re: What concept would improve everybody's cognitive toolkit? Kayfabe (2011)
#20Are you telling me that Blake and Adam weren’t actually rivals??!!