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Tesla Ventilator

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Re: Tesla Ventilator

#111

Post by mcguire »

product50 wrote: post #98
semi-extrinsic wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you misinterpret what I said. They should most definitely help out - by aiding in manufacturing a known working design at bigger scale.

DO you realize that these are car manufacturing companies trying to figure out how they can build ventilators. To build based on existing know-how will likely be incredibly expensive and prohibitive. As such, it is reasonably to expect them build these ventilators based on the realities of their current supply chain, technology, factory capabilities etc. It is so surprising that I have to explain this to a tech audie…

How is starting over from scratch less expensive?

Re: Tesla Ventilator

#112

Post by JorgeGT »

_ea1k wrote: post #49
LittleNemoInS wrote: post #28

This is not Tesla, but Seat has already done it : https://www.seat.com/company/news/company/from-making-cars-t... Less techie, more down to earth, they used wipe motors.

That's actually really impressive. I didn't realize any of these efforts were that far along. It will be interesting to see how long certification takes.

It was certified 3 days ago and today they have started deliveries to hospitals: https://www.abc.es/motor/reportajes/abci-correos-comienza-re...

Re: Tesla Ventilator

#113

Post by rndgermandude »

semi-extrinsic wrote: post #95
product50 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes - of course. Tesla and GM shouldn't even try to help out because obviously they will build the wrong thing. What BS. Take your cynicism elsewhere. You literally are the living embodiment of my point above.

No, you misinterpret what I said. They should most definitely help out - by aiding in manufacturing a known working design at bigger scale.

They are doing exactly that already, partnered with an established company with proven design to help them ramp up production by manufacturing some hard-to-come-by parts.

And then Musk decided to burn some money on top of that, trying to find a way to produce even more machines from existing parts and/or parts that he can get more easily. And people give him shit for that? Seriously?

Has their effort to produce a ventilator like that a high chance of failure? Sure. But maybe their hail marry will succeed and save lives after all. And if they fail, at least they will have tried.

The only actual problem here would be if they produced a worse-than-useless machine that kills people but is put into use anyway. This hasn't happened yet, tho, but people right now are attacking this strawman viciously anyway.

Re: Tesla Ventilator

#114

Post by mcguire »

jiangplus wrote: post #92
Retric wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China has banned exports of medical supplies. Edit: Trusting them to supply medical components seems like a huge risk at this point.

It is not true. China is in post-pandemic time and they even have to sell the over manufactured products to other countries. And many people are shipping and donating masks to their friends oversea. http://weekly.caixin.com/2020-04-04/101538661.html http://international.caixin.com/2020-04-04/101538867.html

Urns in Wuhan Prompt New Questions of Virus’s Toll

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-27/stacks-of...

Re: Tesla Ventilator

#115

Post by mcguire »

tazjin wrote: post #35
baybal2 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If this fails, the patient can die. In the current situation, I doubt anybody will give any regard to your sentiment. Though, I myself will. > The smarter idea is to ramp up existing proven designs, not reinvent the wheel and basically do a publicity stunt about your engineering talent. This is what China did. Ctrl-C, Ctrl-V, and knockoff ventilators began to fly off assembly lines in less than a month. P.S. In oth…

> In the current situation, I doubt anybody will give any regard to your sentiment. Though, I myself will. I think the thought process for a lot of people will go more along the lines of "If you were given the choice of not having a ventilator (because they ran out) and dying, or using an unproven Tesla ventilator and maybe surviving, what would you do?". That's assuming that Tesla (or other companies working on this…

I'm given to understand that Chinese traditional medicine is effective as well, and with their reported success in controlling the epidemic, we should look into those techniques as well.

How much can we count you in for?

Re: Tesla Ventilator

#116

Post by gambler »

pdq wrote: post #27

Yes, this is an impressive amount of work done in a few weeks by a small team at Tesla. However, medical devices, especially for life support systems, are not a Hackathon project. These devices breathe air into patients lungs. They need to be manufactured in clean room conditions, with medical grade parts, not plumbing parts from a big box store. They must be designed and tested to ISO specifications. If this fails,…

Three weeks ago, "hackers" here were posting their ventilator "designs" based on Arduino ducktaped to a CPAP machine and getting hundreds of upvotes. Now Tesla cooperating with actual medical equipment manufacturers is not legit enough?

Re: Tesla Ventilator

#117

Post by penagwin »

viklove wrote: post #100
penagwin wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might be one of those scenerios similar to what's currently happening with PPE - where we just have to use uncertified equipment because we have nothing that is certified left. Like many others have pointed out, if the option is this uncertified machine or certain death - which would you choose? Actual proper testing and certification would likely take years - and we need them within the next few weeks.

Who pays the liability when the ventilator backs up and blows the patient's lung apart?

If you're the patient, and the doctor says "I'm sorry but we have no more ventilators. You can elect to choose this experimental device and sign away liability as a last resort. Otherwise you are going to almost certainly die."

How would you respond? If anything I'd be appalled if I was the patient, and was basically just left to die because of all the certification red tape.

Re: Tesla Ventilator

#118

Post by mcguire »

djoldman wrote: post #39
pdq wrote: post #27

Yes, this is an impressive amount of work done in a few weeks by a small team at Tesla. However, medical devices, especially for life support systems, are not a Hackathon project. These devices breathe air into patients lungs. They need to be manufactured in clean room conditions, with medical grade parts, not plumbing parts from a big box store. They must be designed and tested to ISO specifications. If this fails,…

If a doctor believes it is 99% likely that a patient will die without a ventilator and none are available, then why wouldn't they try something like the one from Tesla? A choice between almost certain death and possible life isn't really a choice.

Welcome to Pascal's Wager.

Re: Tesla Ventilator

#119

Post by wjnc »

rumanator wrote: post #76
heleninboodler wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, medical devices, especially for life support systems, are not a Hackathon project. This effort they're doing really doesn't seem like they're treating it like a "Hackathon" project. They're putting real engineering resources behind it. Whether or not they can produce something in time is still up in the air, but it seems to me Musk is attacking the problem from several different angles and hoping something…

> This effort they're doing really doesn't seem like they're treating it like a "Hackathon" project. They're putting real engineering resources behind it. Engineers can and do hackathon work, but real engineering work is way more about verification and validation than hacking stuff together. Products need to ensure that they will work reliably within all operational limits. You don't ensure that with an all nighter a…

With hospitals in first world countries to larger or smaller extent already using 3D-printers to strengthen faltering supply lines I think the distinction is not so clear. Let a thousand flowers bloom and the doctors decide what they want to use. They can make the best tradeoffs.

Re: Tesla Ventilator

#120

Post by gruez »

penagwin wrote: post #117
viklove wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who pays the liability when the ventilator backs up and blows the patient's lung apart?

If you're the patient, and the doctor says "I'm sorry but we have no more ventilators. You can elect to choose this experimental device and sign away liability as a last resort. Otherwise you are going to almost certainly die." How would you respond? If anything I'd be appalled if I was the patient, and was basically just left to die because of all the certification red tape.

>If anything I'd be appalled if I was the patient, and was basically just left to die because of all the certification red tape.

AFAIK that's what already happens now with highly experimental drugs. You can't just give terminal patients whatever you want with the excuse "they were going to die anyways".

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