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Tesla Ventilator

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Re: Tesla Ventilator

#101

Post by Frondo »

gpm wrote: post #82
bonestamp2 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's great. I hope wiper motors can take that kind of continuous actuation -- it's not really what they're designed for. I'm sure they'll stress test the hell out of it.

Driving for hours in heavy rain results in pretty continuous actuation of wiper motors. I'm far from a mechanic but I can't say I've ever heard of a wiper motor failing either. I'm sure they have real data on it instead of this handwaving, but as an outsider I would be surprised if it was an issue.

Not a comment on the ventilator made from a wiper motor, but I have had one fail, and had to have it replaced for something like $255.

All mechanical parts will fail (the antikythera device isn't still operational, but that's a pretty long-lived device!), it's just a matter of when and why.

Re: Tesla Ventilator

#102

Post by mceachen »

Retric wrote: post #13
sschueller wrote: post #7

For more background info on what is needed for a ventilator and why it isn't that simple: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22779665

The Tesla prototype seems much closer to a medical ventilator than most of the overly simplified models shown in that video. Working Medtronic is likely a large advantage here. Adjusting air temperature and humidity seems like the biggest missing piece.

The schematic on the whiteboard had a humidifier component, fwiw.

Re: Tesla Ventilator

#103

Post by dehrmann »

coredog64 wrote: post #68
bArray wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If this fails, the patient can die. If these patients receive no help, they die anyway. Given the choice between almost certain death or some experimental piece of hardware - give me the experimental hardware. > I can't imagine any hospital or doctor careless enough to > connect one of these to a patient, even in this current > emergency. I'm sure they will go through accelerated testing. > The smarter idea is to r…

The US already has a model for this though: During WW2, Ford Motor Company didn't stroke Henry Ford's ego by designing and building their own bombers -- they license built B-24s. Yes, retooling costs. But tooling costs as well, and costs more besides. With Elon's PR reach, I would expect that he could get at least one vent manufacturer to license a design to him for a dollar/handshake/whatever.

Because you said Ford, he was an anti-Semite, and his company was also part of the Nazi war machine.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/nov98/n...

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/henryfo...

Re: Tesla Ventilator

#104

Post by astrodust »

dehrmann wrote: post #97
coredog64 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US already has a model for this though: During WW2, Ford Motor Company didn't stroke Henry Ford's ego by designing and building their own bombers -- they license built B-24s. Yes, retooling costs. But tooling costs as well, and costs more besides. With Elon's PR reach, I would expect that he could get at least one vent manufacturer to license a design to him for a dollar/handshake/whatever.

There are two major differences, though. Cars are much more similar to airplanes than they are to ventilators, and the lead time for the war effort is much longer. We missed the window for rushing experimental ventilators into production. Looking at projections[1], there's about a 5-10 day window to get these into the hands of doctors. China donating 1000 ventilators to NYC is a much bigger deal. 1: https://www.bloom…

Cars are about as similar to airplanes as airplanes are to washing machines.

Airplanes are exponentially more complicated than cars.

Re: Tesla Ventilator

#105

Post by xiphias2 »

op03 wrote: post #71
Robotbeat wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s more than that. Tesla engineers themselves probably are itching to help. Check out GE’s workers getting mad that the company wasn’t helping to make ventilators. People join companies like Tesla and SpaceX because they want to be challenged, have a bias for action (of course, everything still needs to be qualified), and make the world a better place. In a global pandemic that can be helped by addressing a shortag…

That's pretty much what Trump and his team say too. It's all PR to me, until they are standing next to their product, in use, saving lives.

That would be an unwise decision. Doctors can be replaced with other doctors, but if an engineer working on the ventilator gets sick, and possibly infects the whole team, they are hard to replace, as other engineers don't have the experience and expertise that they got in the last couple of weeks (and maybe years).

Re: Tesla Ventilator

#106

Post by rumanator »

heleninboodler wrote: post #88
rumanator wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This effort they're doing really doesn't seem like they're treating it like a "Hackathon" project. They're putting real engineering resources behind it. Engineers can and do hackathon work, but real engineering work is way more about verification and validation than hacking stuff together. Products need to ensure that they will work reliably within all operational limits. You don't ensure that with an all nighter a…

> You don't ensure that with an all nighter and a 3D printer. Does the video linked look like the result of "an all nighter and a 3D printer" to you?

> Does the video linked look like the result of "an all nighter and a 3D printer" to you?

As you might understand from the language used and your failure to see a 3D printer, my description is what you may describe as a hyperbole.

But still, to put it in terms you might better understand, why do you think that medical devices take years to design and develop and get to the market? There are more things to it other than the old tinfoil stories.

Re: Tesla Ventilator

#107

Post by sergiosgc »

coredog64 wrote: post #68
bArray wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If this fails, the patient can die. If these patients receive no help, they die anyway. Given the choice between almost certain death or some experimental piece of hardware - give me the experimental hardware. > I can't imagine any hospital or doctor careless enough to > connect one of these to a patient, even in this current > emergency. I'm sure they will go through accelerated testing. > The smarter idea is to r…

The US already has a model for this though: During WW2, Ford Motor Company didn't stroke Henry Ford's ego by designing and building their own bombers -- they license built B-24s. Yes, retooling costs. But tooling costs as well, and costs more besides. With Elon's PR reach, I would expect that he could get at least one vent manufacturer to license a design to him for a dollar/handshake/whatever.

It took two years for Ford to start producing B-24s, leading credence to the time-cost of retooling.

Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willow_Run

Re: Tesla Ventilator

#108

Post by mcguire »

semi-extrinsic wrote: post #83
product50 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I knew someone at Hacker News will make a comment like this. Hacker News is cynicism at its finest. "I can't imagine any hospital or doctor careless enough to connect one of these to a patient, even in this current emergency." This is utter BS. Imagine that you are in a situation where you are trying to ration lives by selecting who gets access to a ventilator. Won't you not use this device then too? Please, for god'…

Actually, we had a (world renowned) medical company where I live annouce an emergency ventilator design, complete with functioning prototype. The design was quickly torn apart in public by doctors working on actual Covid-19 patients (the caseload is still manageable here). The device was then shelved. If a well-known medical company can produce something that doctors say is essentially worse than doing nothing, due t…

Do you have a link for the story? It sounds like a good case study.

Re: Tesla Ventilator

#109

Post by DubiousPusher »

The main criticism I see here is that without prolonged testing it's very possible for a piece of equipment like this to do harm to a person.

On the other side I see people saying that for those that can't get a ventilator and are going to die anyway, why not use it.

I'm curious if that category of patients exists though. With Covid are doctors able to make that call at any point? I've heard lot of Hail Mary treatments criticized because unlike in the movies there are many ailments where there's not really a clear point where someone's not coming back.

Anyone know if it's a common scenario with this where a doctor knows someone is def going to die but there is still time left to do meaningful treatment?

Re: Tesla Ventilator

#110

Post by baybal2 »

jiangplus wrote: post #92
Retric wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China has banned exports of medical supplies. Edit: Trusting them to supply medical components seems like a huge risk at this point.

It is not true. China is in post-pandemic time and they even have to sell the over manufactured products to other countries. And many people are shipping and donating masks to their friends oversea. http://weekly.caixin.com/2020-04-04/101538661.html http://international.caixin.com/2020-04-04/101538867.html

http://www.mofcom.gov.cn/article/b/c/202003/20200302950371.s...
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