Lyme disease bacteria eradicated by new drug in early tests • Hacker News Board

Re: Lyme disease bacteria eradicated by new drug in early tests

#151

Post by James_Henry » Fri, Apr 03, 2020, 5:01 PM UTC

hannob wrote: post #149

James_Henry wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the link. In case you are interested, here is a larger study from in Wuhan that showed lower time to recovery on hydroxychloroquine: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.22.20040758v...

I wasn't aware of this one yet. Though... it seems it has plenty of issues as well, see the comments on pubpeer: https://pubpeer.com/publications/71E74AD5896DCF99981A47917DE... In the trials registry [1] this was registered as a three arm trial with 100 patients each, so 300 overall. Yet the paper mentions ony two groups with 31 patients each. That alone looks very dubious... [1] http://www.chictr.org.cn/showprojen.a…

It's not necessarily dubious to change a protocol, but it is concerning that they didn't report on the changes along with their reasoning.

It would make sense, if they couldn't get 300 research subjects, that there would be a change of protocol. Also, I think it could have been a good idea to switch from viral load and t cell recovery time to something more meaningful and quick to measure like TTCR and pulmonary condition, but again, they don't explain the change so for all we know the change was to get their names on a more exciting paper.

I see no reason why they would drop the placebo either.

We really do have to wait for the bigger and better trials.

Re: Lyme disease bacteria eradicated by new drug in early tests

#152

Post by oblib » Fri, Apr 03, 2020, 5:04 PM UTC

dempedempe wrote: post #81

oblib wrote: post #62

This has no bearing on the tests of this new drug, but it's worth noting that the best prevention is getting ticks off of you quickly. I know this because I live in a very tick infested area (Ozark Mountains) and very few people who've grown up here in families that have lived here for generations get lyme disease. I don't personally know anyone who has. Since I was kid in the `60s, and long before that, parents here…

I also live in the Ozarks. Pretty sure that the ticks that bear Lyme disease bacteria are practically non-existent in the Ozarks. They're more relegated to the North East. Not to downplay the importance of tick checks and other prevention techniques.

One of my nearest neighbor's kids got it here. He had the classic "ring" around the bite and the tick was fairly well gorged and swollen when they pulled it off. So it's here. But that family moved here from Indiana so they didn't grow up with the tradition of daily tick checks like folks living in rural areas here do.

But, damn, that map showing the incidents in the eastern States is sure impressive.

It would be interesting to study the tradition of "tick checks" here and there to get an idea of how that might affect those numbers.

Re: Lyme disease bacteria eradicated by new drug in early tests

#153

Post by dempedempe » Fri, Apr 03, 2020, 5:05 PM UTC

darkerside wrote: post #132

HeadsUpHigh wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Smart talking aside it's possible and relatively easy to identify microbes without growing them. When an immuno-suppresive is effective at reducing symptoms you know it's an autoimmune disorder. You can even find specific anti-bodies in some cases. >You could really ask the same question about Crohn's or IBS. No you couldn't. They are clearly auto-immune disorders. Out of curiosity, do you have any formal training on…

> When an immuno-suppresive is effective at reducing symptoms you know it's an autoimmune disorder. Aren't there diseases where someone are caused not by the microbe directly but by the body's immune reaction to it? > Out of curiosity, do you have any formal training on medicine/physiology or is your knowledge base self-aquired? Argument from authority (or lack thereof) is pretty contrary to the HN ethos, imo. You're…

> Aren't there diseases where someone are caused not by the microbe directly but by the body's immune reaction to it?

Yep. For example, that's what causes the "cytokine storm" in COVID-19.

Re: Lyme disease bacteria eradicated by new drug in early tests

#154

Post by Beltiras » Fri, Apr 03, 2020, 5:12 PM UTC

hinkley wrote: post #36

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #2

Note that they're carefully dancing around the elephant in the room: As far as I know, no one has ever demonstrated that Lyme spirochetes survive a course of standard antibiotics (Emphasis mine): > Standard treatment of Lyme disease is oral antibiotics, typically doxycycline, in the early stages of the disease; but for reasons that are unclear, the antibiotics don't work for up to 20% of people with the tick-borne il…

Lyme disease talk just makes me think of Nicholas Zakas and then I get bummed out. I know there's a guy, or maybe he represents a group of researchers, who thinks that Chronic Fatigue Syndrome is caused by inflammation in the brain, either due to some undetectable infection, or just a misfiring that is a lingering effect of some other insult (sounds to me like a histamine response aka allergy). If your body thought y…

Don't Crohn's and IBS nigh disappear when using CBD heavy Cannabis? Pointing towards a combination of inflammation and stress.

Re: Lyme disease bacteria eradicated by new drug in early tests

#155

Post by hinkley » Fri, Apr 03, 2020, 5:28 PM UTC

Beltiras wrote: post #154

hinkley wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lyme disease talk just makes me think of Nicholas Zakas and then I get bummed out. I know there's a guy, or maybe he represents a group of researchers, who thinks that Chronic Fatigue Syndrome is caused by inflammation in the brain, either due to some undetectable infection, or just a misfiring that is a lingering effect of some other insult (sounds to me like a histamine response aka allergy). If your body thought y…

Don't Crohn's and IBS nigh disappear when using CBD heavy Cannabis? Pointing towards a combination of inflammation and stress.

Ibuprofen doesn't make the flu go away, but it protects you from having a seizure from high fever.

Re: Lyme disease bacteria eradicated by new drug in early tests

#156

Post by hinkley » Fri, Apr 03, 2020, 5:43 PM UTC

stainforth wrote: post #146

smallnamespace wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a growing consensus in immunology/rheumatology that infections may be a major cause of autoimmunity. One mechanism is molecular mimicry - antigens from foreign invaders that are similar to your body’s own proteins trigger your immune system to attack both self and invader. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199912303412707

Why is the auto-immune response chronic, if say the original infection passes? Or is the infection constant as well?

Viruses typically invade a cell by latching onto a part of the cell membrane, usually a receptor of some sort. Those receptors are for some biologic process from regulation to nutrition. If it can't mimic any structure it can't reproduce and will be selected out.

An antibody is in some ways similar. They latch onto the bacteria or virus, but instead of invading they glom on and then signal the body to come dispose of this thing.

If your body picks the wrong feature for the pattern, then the antibody could attach to healthy tissue. Maybe one particular type, like insulin cells, or myelin.

Re: Lyme disease bacteria eradicated by new drug in early tests

#157

Post by hinkley » Fri, Apr 03, 2020, 5:44 PM UTC

jamisteven wrote: post #102

hinkley wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lyme disease talk just makes me think of Nicholas Zakas and then I get bummed out. I know there's a guy, or maybe he represents a group of researchers, who thinks that Chronic Fatigue Syndrome is caused by inflammation in the brain, either due to some undetectable infection, or just a misfiring that is a lingering effect of some other insult (sounds to me like a histamine response aka allergy). If your body thought y…

Great writing.

Thanks. I can be hit or miss. Maybe I need an editor :)

Sometimes I read old stuff and think, "wow, I said that?" other times, "I have no idea what point I was trying to make."

Re: Lyme disease bacteria eradicated by new drug in early tests

#158

Post by nickysielicki » Fri, Apr 03, 2020, 5:51 PM UTC

I come from Wisconsin and I've been bit by ticks so many times. If you don't deal with them you probably miss out on how tiny these little motherfuckers are. They look like freckles. That pic with the dime is the same one on my leg there.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/vs4d1k8CGPekvPUC7

Now imagine if it's not on your leg but in your hair. Yeah, good luck finding that. I think it's also relevant to say that the bullseye appears less than half the time that people get lyme, and it's not always a bullseye. I've had weird scaly white rashes, etc.

My advice is go here and buy medicine so you don't have to bother with a doctor. https://fishmoxfishflex.com/collections/fish-antibiotics

Sucks, but that's the life. Take care of yourself.

edit: I highly recommend this video if you're interested in learning more about tick-bourne diseases in the midwest, Lyme is often just the name applied to a bunch of diseaes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-N9rx1Vqxbc

Re: Lyme disease bacteria eradicated by new drug in early tests

#159

Post by dumbneurologist » Fri, Apr 03, 2020, 6:00 PM UTC

vimy wrote: post #142

dumbneurologist wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This shows a lack of empathy. Well, now you are attacking my humanity. It's very difficult to have constructive dialog about these issues when individuals attack the speaker, and not what's being said. We are talking about public health policy, which necessarily glosses over individual patients who are suffering and aggregates them into cold, sterile statistics in order to make decisions that are best for society.…

[flagged]

The post I'm responding to is a stanford researcher who is posting about lyme disease. Is she a lyme sufferer? If she is she doesn't say so, and I'm not making any assumptions.

You are attacking me for saying "lyme people" even as you use "lyme patients" in the same sentence. There is no difference: both use lyme as an adjective to define a subpopulation using a completely innocuous starting population ("people" v "patients"). I'm just starting with a bigger group, because unaffected family, friends, etc can have these opinions too.

Re: Lyme disease bacteria eradicated by new drug in early tests

#160

Post by vimy » Fri, Apr 03, 2020, 6:31 PM UTC

dumbneurologist wrote: post #159

vimy wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The post I'm responding to is a stanford researcher who is posting about lyme disease. Is she a lyme sufferer? If she is she doesn't say so, and I'm not making any assumptions. You are attacking me for saying "lyme people" even as you use "lyme patients" in the same sentence. There is no difference: both use lyme as an adjective to define a subpopulation using a completely innocuous starting population ("people" v "p…

From the context it was clear you used it as a pejorative. The tone of your original post was: Lyme patients should stop whining, it's not that bad of a disease.

In reality, patients with Lyme have a worse quality of life than those with AIDS or cancer. It's that bad. And what you wrote tells me that you, as a doctor, don't seem to understand that.