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Lyme disease bacteria eradicated by new drug in early tests

scopeblog.stanford.edu

111–120 of 186 posts

Re: Lyme disease bacteria eradicated by new drug in early tests

#111
post #110

Note that they're carefully dancing around the elephant in the room: As far as I know, no one has ever demonstrated that Lyme spirochetes survive a course of standard antibiotics (Emphasis mine): > Standard treatment of Lyme disease is oral antibiotics, typically doxycycline, in the early stages of the disease; but for reasons that are unclear, the antibiotics don't work for up to 20% of people with the tick-borne il…

“As far as I know, no one has ever demonstrated that Lyme spirochetes survive a course of standard antibiotics” QFT. While PTLDS is a real thing (being long-term sequelae to the original Lyme infection), be very wary of anything labeled “chronic lyme”, which is a common code-word concoction of “Lyme-literate” MDs/DOs, naturopaths, and other quacks for peddling their nostrums (including permanent courses of antibiotic…

This is amazing - thanks so much for the LYMERix link. I'm nearly done with medical school and somehow never heard this story!

Re: Lyme disease bacteria eradicated by new drug in early tests

#112
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Persistent Borrelia Infection in Patients with Ongoing Symptoms of Lyme Disease. >RESULTS: Motile spirochetes identified histopathologically as Borrelia were detected in culture specimens, and these spirochetes were genetically identified as Borreliaburgdorferi by three distinct polymerase chain reaction (PCR)-based approaches. Spirochetes identified as Borrelia burgdorferi were cultured from the blood of seven subje…

> Persistent Borrelia Infection in Patients with Ongoing Symptoms of Lyme Disease. This paper is from Marianne J Middelveen, who is well known for embracing quackery and producing questionable papers. Her earlier claims that Lyme is a sexually transmitted disease were quickly dismissed, though not before generating a lot of noise in the media: https://www.aldf.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Lyme-Borreli... She also w…

“This is my least favorite part of discussing Lyme online. So many people are deeply convinced of their chosen narrative that they unquestioningly accept any papers that support their claims, while refusing to acknowledge any evidence to the contrary. This has created quite the market for pseudoscientific researchers to peddle narratives and pseudo-research that meets the demand for what people want to hear.”

SCAM SOP. Because it’s all about Them. Peddlers reap wealth and adulation; victims are miserable AF but “vindicated”. Talk about mutual parasitosis.

Re: Lyme disease bacteria eradicated by new drug in early tests

#113
post #92
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

right but everyone is out and about. while people in asian wore masks when they went grocery shppping. i get what they did but they screwed civilians for sure in the name of saving doctors. they actively lied about them being needed so one group would have a better chance. the truth is if you were going to have any contact with someone you needed a mask.

> i get what they did but they screwed civilians for sure in the name of saving doctors. they actively lied about them being needed so one group would have a better chance. Think a moment. The sick people need the doctors and nurses alive. Stripping the supply of PPE for medical professionals is lose-lose for everyone. Even if only all of the high-risk non-medical-workers bought effective masks, it would obliterate t…

Think indeed.

Lie once, lie always. Honesty is imperative for a public trust.

Now, what do you think the crazy anti-vaxxers will say, next time they're told to trust the CDC, and other public bodies, and that vaccination is safe, and makes sense?

When a vaccine is created, perhaps, for this virus?

Now it is easier to convince others that the truth is concealed. That lies abound.

Any medical official should lose their license, for spreading quackery.

Re: Lyme disease bacteria eradicated by new drug in early tests

#114
I heard a great interview with the author, Kris Newby, concerning her recent book, Bitten.

I haven't read her book, but it sounded good, and she definitely knows what she's talking about.

Bitten: The Secret History of Lyme Disease and Biological Weapons, By Kris Newby.

Re: Lyme disease bacteria eradicated by new drug in early tests

#115
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure that I understand the argument. The FAA is also clearly not hitting optimal space between "safety" and "getting new planes flying fast". Sometimes it appears the FDA hasn't been conservative enough, see Vioxx and labelling/guidance around opioids.

The difference is that preventing new planes from entering the market doesn't kill people.

But allowing unsafe planes onto the market will.

Because this is not just about those people who are sick right now. It’s about the many, many more who will be sick in future: useless or harmful treatments released to market will negatively impact all of them too.

So let’s not lose perspective here. The FDA does not kill people. Diseases kill people. It’s the FDA’s role to reduce that toll over time. For there is no problem that cannot be made still worse through addition of greed and histrionics.

As per usual, follow the money to see who’s championing lowered standards. Short-termism works fantastically for quarterly bonuses, not so much for delivering decades-long improvements in the healthcare that will affect your children and your grandchildren and your great-grandchildren too.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/federal-right-to-try-over-a...

--

Oh, and it really shouldn’t need repeating that the FDA already provides early access to still experimental treatments, but I guess it does:

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/public-health-focus/expanded...

You might want to consider why those calling for the FDA’s neutering commonly fail to point that little factoid out. Since, you know, they’re wanting to help the patients n’all.

--

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=medicine+wagon

https://www.google.com/search?q=frances+kelsey

Re: Lyme disease bacteria eradicated by new drug in early tests

#116
The roots of the plant Cryptolepis, also known as yellow-dye root, was found to be very effective against Lyme disease. So was the the Japanese Knotweed: https://blog.frontiersin.org/2020/02/21/ethnobotanical-medic...

Cryptolepis contains quinine and used by some tribes in West Africa to treat malaria.

Re: Lyme disease bacteria eradicated by new drug in early tests

#117
I am a neurologist.

My main comments are the same from a thread about lyme on HN 7 months ago [1]. If you follow it to it's terminal conclusion, it shows that neurologists had a standard course of therapy for lyme. The alt-lyme community insisted that it was too short, and you needed long term treatment (with a duration based on their own experiences/treatment regimens). So conventional medicine studied the longer courses of treatment, and found there was no difference when studied in an objective way (randomized double blind comparison). Well, as soon as that happened, the goal posts got moved back, and they alt-lyme community said "well of course the study was negative! the treatment course wasn't long enough! It needs to be 12 weeks, not 8 weeks" (or whatever), even though they had consistently been saying 8 prior to the study. And still conventional medicine is open minded about any evidence that can be provided. That's how science works! But you are going to need to pay for the evidence, lyme people, because we feel like we did our due diligence with the first study, and don't need a repeat of the public health resources that were wasted searching for the autism-vaccine link over and over again.

Even the other treatment outlined in this blog post (disulfuram) has an open study that is still looking for volunteers. That tells you a little bit about the level of need (modest, but not zero) and the disinterest of the patient community in advancing science (you can draw your own conclusions here).

Related to this Stanford post specifically, I'm disappointed.

> We'd been bitten by unseen ticks harboring the parasites that cause Lyme disease and babesiosis, a malaria-like disease

It's far (far!) less like malaria than it is to syphilis. It's a bit like saying "this is a border collie, which is similar to a Maine Coone". Ok, well... kind of. To the extent that they are both mammals. But why are we not comparing the border collie to a great dane or a poodle? Because those are just as familiar, and way more similar.

What syphilis and lyme have in common is that they are both spirichete bacteria, and a huge portion of the disease burden if it's not diagnosed quickly (and it's often not...) is due to autoimmune injury. You can completely kill all the bacteria in the chronically infected person, and their life will not get any better, because the autoimmunity is present, and unrelenting. Which is the second big criticism of this blog post: killing all the bacteria is not the challenge, and this discovery, while awesome, is not awesome for the reasons described.

PragmaticPulp really nailed it here with what is now the top comment on this thread.

> for reasons that are unclear, the antibiotics don't work for up to 20% of people with the tick-borne illness. One possibility is that drug-tolerant bacteria cause the lingering symptoms.

these reasons are only unclear to the alt-lyme community.

> Many researchers believe that doxycyline's inability to clear the persisters may account for the ongoing symptoms of some Lyme sufferers.

Yes, the same researchers that are working on climate change for Exxon. It doesn't mean they won't disprove climate change, but it means they are outside the conventional understanding of this area of science.

Overall, though, the science story here is legitimately cool! The scientists are using the application of a high-throughput system to test multiple compounds with known safety profiles against a pathogenic organism. That's an awesome form of problem solving consistent with the hacker ethos, and is done a disservice when presented along side this alt-lyme woo.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20749216

Re: Lyme disease bacteria eradicated by new drug in early tests

#118
Something starting to really itch here, and, no, it’s not a tick bite.

Is there a reliable scientific cite† for this PR piece’s statement that “antibiotics don't work for up to 20% of people with [Lyme disease]”?

Because the only “20%” I’m seeing commonly mentioned elsewhere describes the 10-20% of patients who develop post-infection sequelae. Which is NOT the same as “antibiotics don’t work”.

Or has Stanford PR just put its size thirteen in its mouth?

(†And I don’t mean the “Lyme-literate” quacks and other AltMed scammers.)

Re: Lyme disease bacteria eradicated by new drug in early tests

#119
post #36

Note that they're carefully dancing around the elephant in the room: As far as I know, no one has ever demonstrated that Lyme spirochetes survive a course of standard antibiotics (Emphasis mine): > Standard treatment of Lyme disease is oral antibiotics, typically doxycycline, in the early stages of the disease; but for reasons that are unclear, the antibiotics don't work for up to 20% of people with the tick-borne il…

Lyme disease talk just makes me think of Nicholas Zakas and then I get bummed out. I know there's a guy, or maybe he represents a group of researchers, who thinks that Chronic Fatigue Syndrome is caused by inflammation in the brain, either due to some undetectable infection, or just a misfiring that is a lingering effect of some other insult (sounds to me like a histamine response aka allergy). If your body thought y…

Smart talking aside it's possible and relatively easy to identify microbes without growing them. When an immuno-suppresive is effective at reducing symptoms you know it's an autoimmune disorder. You can even find specific anti-bodies in some cases.

>You could really ask the same question about Crohn's or IBS.

No you couldn't. They are clearly auto-immune disorders.

Out of curiosity, do you have any formal training on medicine/physiology or is your knowledge base self-aquired?

Re: Lyme disease bacteria eradicated by new drug in early tests

#120
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lyme disease talk just makes me think of Nicholas Zakas and then I get bummed out. I know there's a guy, or maybe he represents a group of researchers, who thinks that Chronic Fatigue Syndrome is caused by inflammation in the brain, either due to some undetectable infection, or just a misfiring that is a lingering effect of some other insult (sounds to me like a histamine response aka allergy). If your body thought y…

Smart talking aside it's possible and relatively easy to identify microbes without growing them. When an immuno-suppresive is effective at reducing symptoms you know it's an autoimmune disorder. You can even find specific anti-bodies in some cases. >You could really ask the same question about Crohn's or IBS. No you couldn't. They are clearly auto-immune disorders. Out of curiosity, do you have any formal training on…

There is a growing consensus in immunology/rheumatology that infections may be a major cause of autoimmunity. One mechanism is molecular mimicry - antigens from foreign invaders that are similar to your body’s own proteins trigger your immune system to attack both self and invader.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199912303412707

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