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Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

theatlantic.com

241–250 of 315 posts

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's extraordinary in the sense that there is no known mechanism for it to work. E.g. soap kills viruses by dissolving them, some painkillers work by blocking transmission of signals along nerves, radiotherapy kills cells in the blast zone. Other than through establishing a psychological effect around 'someone cares', there's simply no known way of positive thoughts in one person's head being transmitted down through…

Well... That sounds testable. Use 10 people who have chronic pain who report pain relief with hands-on reiki. As for the test: Hands-off reiki vs hands-off no reiki (person who isn't trained in reiki present) vs nothing We should see significant reporting of gains with the hands-off reiki, and should see no gains with #2 or #3... Just because we can't see this assumed energy doesn't mean we can't measure it somehow.

Place a log-periodic tooth antenna on the patient. Hook it up to a wide-band signal analyzer. Perform reiki. If no signal is read, electromagnetic energy in the frequency range of the antenna is likely ruled out. Repeat the measurement with identical touch that is non-reiki. No difference means that reiki does not use that energy band.

Repeat with photovoltaic cells, microphones, night-vision sensors, capacitative sensors, inductive sensors, magnetism sensors, etc.

My hypothesis is that reiki is 100% placebo effect, no difference will ever be measured between otherwise identical reiki and non-reiki movements, and the most effective investigation of reiki would be measuring the brain states of patients who think they are receiving treatments.

Activating the placebo effect is good. If we can study it enough, we might even be able to do it without any bunkum.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#242
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Modern medicine, with the way hospitals and health insurance are run, do not and cannot address, for economic reasons, a pretty important aspect, albeit subjective, which is well-being. The "economic reasons" are just the preferences of the rich & powerful. Resources could be allocated in other ways. It is just that those that call the shots are not interested. In the US, they also managed to convince a large part…

>I dream of an economic system that serves human beings instead of the numerical abstractions behind which the rich and powerful hide their extreme selfishness. This is what capitalism is in its essence - a complex decentralised pricing mechanism where every human's choices is taken into account on the free market. The problem is that it has been corrupted by cronyism which has indirectly destroyed the human element…

When it's good we call it self-interest. When it's bad we call it cronyism.

We define capitalism in terms of markets because we would rather not discuss the more fundamental question of who owns what.

When capitalism produces spectacular exaggerations of human cruelty, it has been corrupted. When a socialist system produces it, it is intrinsic.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#243
post #188
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Addressing the quiet downvoters. It upsets me how dismissive our culture can be. What if there's something to it? There's a rich history of people thinking that there is. Do they really not deserve a second thought? I wish everyone were always a skeptic, but never off-hand dismissive. To those entrusting our mainstream with authority on what's bullshit and what's not, remember that psychedelics research is still ille…

EDIT: This comment ended up way longer than I set out for it to be. The TL;DR is "I used to not get it. Now I get it, but I will still discourage it." >Do they really not deserve a second thought? People do deserve a second thought, as do enduring ideas, but not always a third. For some of us, on some matters, this is our third thought, or thirtieth thought, or more. I am happy to put a name to my downvote, and to ex…

Thank you for taking the time for writing this.

I agree with you, subtle energy is not physical. I have written about it in other comments ... and like you, I feel fatigued about having to explain this all the time.

Since you took the time to write about it, I will try my best to write it here too:

I do not mean that the idea of subtle energy is a useful metaphor. Subtle energy is real. Subtle energy is not the same as the physical energy described in physics.

What I mean by "real" is not the same "real" as in a definitive, physical manner. That gets into the areas beyond "extraordinary". If you already find the idea of "subtle energy is real" is ridiculous, I don't really see the point in continuing down this line of discussion.

One of the characteristics about subtle energy that is not described by physical energy is that subtle energy carries information, among them, emotions, concepts, awareness, sentience, etc. It will move and change based upon the information it carries.

Consciousness (another problematic term) can experience and sense subtle energy, but it is in turn, affected by it.

In other words, the physical description of science is a useful metaphor for describing subtle energy. Unfortunately, you are right in that many people would borrow from authority implied by using scientific terms to lend validity to these claims. That is harmful, not just in the sense that people will take action on it and do stupid things. It is also harmful in the sense that it assumes the scientific method can describe everything ... and I don't think it is capable of the adequately exploring subtle energy or consciousness. (But there are people who are trying; more props to them).

There is no "energy gland". I get annoyed when I read up claims like that. Rather, consciousness is generating and receiving subtle energy. There may be such a thing as subtle anatomy -- non-physical structures that can transceive subtle energy; but they are a part of the makeup of consciousness. "Gland" is not really a useful metaphor to describe them, because it is more useful the distinguish the physical gland, and the consciousness of that particular gland.

I have serious doubts that this stuff can ever by objectively explored. I doubt any mechanistic form of technology can really measure it.

I started qualifying the term "energy" with "subtle energy". People are then free to agree or disagree, even reject the whole notion of "subtle energy".

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The figure of the family doctor that takes his time and actually shows you attention has vanished. The average experience of a hospital visit is that of being treated like a number. This doesn't have to be so (indeed in many places it isn't yet). This is a consequence of a strained public health system which is simply running over capacity. Maybe if we stopped pumping money into banks and wealthy people's pockets we…

The US spends more on healthcare per capita than any other country, which is hardly surprising given that it’s the richest country. Whatever criticisms one might make of the US healthcare system not enough money is far down the list.

The per capita amount isn't really interesting if

(a) most people people aren't getting that, because the average is mainly due to a small minority getting most of the spending;

(b) it's wasted spending (admin, fake money/prices circulating around, bullshit jobs taking the money);

(c) it's not a measure of the doctor time available to patients.

With regard to (c) in particular, it's possible, probable even, to be spending more money than anywhere else while also having insufficient doctor time resource, and therefore having a system stretched to over capacity.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Subtle energy is real though. Do you actually understand what the word "energy" means? What form of energy is it? Can you demonstrate with a controlled scientific test this energy?

It's qualitative energy, not quantitative energy. The same energy one feels when one experiences love, feels lifted up by a favorite song, or feels exuberance when one's team wins the superbowl.

I don't mean it as "qualitative energy" in the sense you are using, though there are qualities to it. It affects conciousness, and is in turn affected by consciousness. The consciousness can be trained to influence, even direct or focus the it.

So yes, people experience love, fill inspired, or feel exuberance, and those are subtle energy in different forms. But it also has substance. Someone skilled in its use can intensify it, purify it, project it, and influence someone else's mood with it.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#246

I'm fascinated that, as far as I can tell, there's a lot of disagreement here about whether this is "mumbo jumbo" or not, when nobody is addressing the major aspect that differentiates reiki from other non-traditional medicines -- which is that it is based on touch . We're social animals. I've never had reiki but I have spent some time in hospitals. You know what you NEVER get in a hospital? Someone touching you in a…

Only it is not based on touch. The "Reiki Master" quoted in the article says it works just as well at a distance. He also claims that it works on animals and plants and that many cats can perform Reiki on their owners.

That last claim is patently ridiculous.

Cats don't have owners; they have servants.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#247
My dad has spent almost all of his free time, for the last 40-50 yrs, as an amateur pseudo-scientist, including spiritism and syncretism, practicing a good subset of beliefs and rituals spliced from Christian, African and Asian religions.

He has been a part of different communities or groups at times (kardecists, candomblé and buddhists to name a few), as a teacher and practitioner (ie. "medium" and "doctor") but never did any of it for money (or power), afaik, but as a spiritually fulfilling hobby. Besides practicing things like issuing homeopathic treatments to the sick, having a very lively shrine at our different homes, reading and teaching at study sessions, and a hack-load of strange rituals, he also did plenty of charity and fundraisers for the needy in our different communities.

Now he's semi-retired and focus mostly on Reiki.

I grew up believing our home-equivalent of a "religion" (my mom is also a believer) to be the absolute and undeniable truth. It took me years to unlearn and today I'm quite the unattached, worldly person I've become.

After watching dozens of people benefit or suffer under these rituals, is that there IS more good in it than bad. In the case of Reiki specifically, it's the "science" of comfort. The amazing feeling of human proximity, human touch and humane social interaction is very energizing and therapeutical. Reiki is different from mindfulness and meditation (which my dad taught me when I was 7) but not unlike them, is tied to healing activities practiced since ancient times and has many psychological, or even evolutionary, explanations on where its benefits come from. But its science is not linked in any way to quantum physics or energy as such. There's just no way my dad is actually sending me Reiki from 8000 miles away! He does try, though.

Today I accept their beliefs, as I accept Reiki, and my only gripe is how my parents judgement was, at times, completely impaired by their faith, as they use it as a substitute (not a complement) to real science, in particular, as a proxy for a visit to a doctor. Or an "Earth doctor" like my dad used to say. As they've aged, they've also tuned down their rhetoric as only "Earth doctors" can install pacemakers.

And that's the real damage Reiki, as many other treatments, inflicts: it can easily become a proxy therapy to real medicine and science, out of fear, money, conspiracies or plain dumbness. Maybe the way forward would be for (Western) science to embrace the study of spiritual therapies, so it can be understood and applied by the medical profession, which would help hinder obscurity and quackery. But I guess that's just what makes them appealing to so many people.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#248

> The ailments that Reiki seems to treat most effectively are those that orthodox medicine struggles to manage: pain, anxiety, chronic disease, and the fear or discomfort of facing not only the suffering of illness but also the suffering of treatment. This is key. Modern medicine, with the way hospitals and health insurance are run, do not and cannot address, for economic reasons, a pretty important aspect, albeit su…

Its not doctor's job to tell her patients to manage anxiety. Doctors job is not to play a guru. Her job is dispose medically proven solutions.

Why would a doctor be in better position to give this personal advice to her patients ?

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#249

I'm fascinated that, as far as I can tell, there's a lot of disagreement here about whether this is "mumbo jumbo" or not, when nobody is addressing the major aspect that differentiates reiki from other non-traditional medicines -- which is that it is based on touch . We're social animals. I've never had reiki but I have spent some time in hospitals. You know what you NEVER get in a hospital? Someone touching you in a…

My experiences with reiki were positive, but my practitioner mixed shiatsu (lots of touch) with reiki.

There's an article on HN today also on "Physical force alone spurs gene expression, study reveals", which might be an interesting angle to consider with any sort of therapeutic massage involving contact.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22757857

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#250

> The ailments that Reiki seems to treat most effectively are those that orthodox medicine struggles to manage: pain, anxiety, chronic disease, and the fear or discomfort of facing not only the suffering of illness but also the suffering of treatment. This is key. Modern medicine, with the way hospitals and health insurance are run, do not and cannot address, for economic reasons, a pretty important aspect, albeit su…

Its not doctor's job to tell her patients to manage anxiety. Doctors job is not to play a guru. Her job is dispose medically proven solutions. Why would a doctor be in better position to give this personal advice to her patients ?

Why not? The mayo clinic defines anxiety as a medical disorder: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/anxiety/sympt.... Why shouldn't doctors help patients manage it?
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