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Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

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Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#181
post #72
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reiki focuses specifically on this aspect in emphasizing the focus, intent and emotional commitment of the practitioner. Replace "energy" with "emotion" and it begins to look legitimate.

Sure, the attitude one holds is important. People can sense that at some level. Subtle energy is real though. Reiki is one of the modalities that does not require being in person. There’s a bunch of weirder, more obscure modalities that can work with chronic pain, trauma, and the like.

> Subtle energy is real though.

Do you actually understand what the word "energy" means? What form of energy is it? Can you demonstrate with a controlled scientific test this energy?

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#182
> Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

It doesn't. Intro section on Wikipedia [0] already lists five studies that concluded it doesn't work: "Clinical research does not show reiki to be effective as a treatment for any medical condition, including cancer,[4][5] diabetic neuropathy,[6] or anxiety and depression,[7] therefore it should not replace conventional medical treatment. There is no proof of the effectiveness of reiki therapy compared to placebo. Studies reporting positive effects have had methodological flaws.[2]"

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Reiki&oldid=94822...

[2] Lee, MS; Pittler, MH; Ernst, E (2008). "Effects of reiki in clinical practice: A systematic review of randomised clinical trials". International Journal of Clinical Practice (Systematic Review). 62 (6): 947–54. doi:10.1111/j.1742-1241.2008.01729.x. PMID 18410352. "Most trials suffered from methodological flaws such as small sample size, inadequate study design and poor reporting....In conclusion, the evidence is insufficient to suggest that reiki is an effective treatment for any condition. Therefore the value of reiki remains unproven."

[4] Russell J; Rovere A, eds. (2009). "Reiki". American Cancer Society Complete Guide to Complementary and Alternative Cancer Therapies (2nd ed.). American Cancer Society. pp. 243–45. ISBN 9780944235713.

[5] "Reiki | Complementary and alternative therapy | Cancer Research UK". about-cancer.cancerresearchuk.org. Retrieved 2020-02-12.

[6] Bril, V; England, J; Franklin, GM; Backonja, M; et al. (2011). "Evidence-based guideline: Treatment of painful diabetic neuropathy: Report of the American Academy of Neurology, the American Association of Neuromuscular and Electrodiagnostic Medicine, and the American Academy of Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation" (PDF). Neurology. 76 (20): 1758–65. doi:10.1212/WNL.0b013e3182166ebe. PMC 3100130. PMID 21482920.

[7] Joyce, Janine; Herbison, G Peter (2007-10-17), "Reiki treatment for psychological symptoms", in The Cochrane Collaboration (ed.), Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews, John Wiley & Sons, Ltd, pp. CD006833, doi:10.1002/14651858.cd006833

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And who's the authority on what's extraordinary then?

It's extraordinary in the sense that there is no known mechanism for it to work. E.g. soap kills viruses by dissolving them, some painkillers work by blocking transmission of signals along nerves, radiotherapy kills cells in the blast zone. Other than through establishing a psychological effect around 'someone cares', there's simply no known way of positive thoughts in one person's head being transmitted down through…

Well... That sounds testable.

Use 10 people who have chronic pain who report pain relief with hands-on reiki.

As for the test: Hands-off reiki vs hands-off no reiki (person who isn't trained in reiki present) vs nothing

We should see significant reporting of gains with the hands-off reiki, and should see no gains with #2 or #3...

Just because we can't see this assumed energy doesn't mean we can't measure it somehow.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#184

> The ailments that Reiki seems to treat most effectively are those that orthodox medicine struggles to manage: pain, anxiety, chronic disease, and the fear or discomfort of facing not only the suffering of illness but also the suffering of treatment. This is key. Modern medicine, with the way hospitals and health insurance are run, do not and cannot address, for economic reasons, a pretty important aspect, albeit su…

> Modern medicine, with the way hospitals and health insurance are run, do not and cannot address, for economic reasons, a pretty important aspect, albeit subjective, which is well-being. The "economic reasons" are just the preferences of the rich & powerful. Resources could be allocated in other ways. It is just that those that call the shots are not interested. In the US, they also managed to convince a large part…

I dream of a species which doesn't use tribal psychology to explain complex phenomena.

Yes yes, "the rich and powerful" are "greedy and selfish". Yes yes, they brainwashed everyone.

You look at limited resources and are disheartened by your conspiratorial fantasies explaining their limitation.

I look at you and I'm disheartened that you mistake limitation for conspiracy, and sustainable distribution for greed.

What a disappointing species -- only able to think clearly and accurately in a jungle. The tools of our thought are stupid instruments for explaining a world of billions. When faced with difficult choices we retreat from understanding them into gossip, conspiracy and dumb outrage.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#185
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Addressing the quiet downvoters. It upsets me how dismissive our culture can be. What if there's something to it? There's a rich history of people thinking that there is. Do they really not deserve a second thought? I wish everyone were always a skeptic, but never off-hand dismissive. To those entrusting our mainstream with authority on what's bullshit and what's not, remember that psychedelics research is still ille…

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. None was provided, so we will have to dismiss it until some proof is provided. Nobody is dismissing proof here. They're only dismissive of the extraordinary claims that an immeasurable energy somehow inherent to some things has any effect beyond essentially the placebo effect. After all, there hasn't been any evidence which showed differently. If you have some stud…

> None was provided, so we will have to dismiss it until some proof is provided.

this itself is an affirmative negation with no supporting evidence.

at best we should be ambivalent from an empirical standpoint.

side note: why do strict rationalists love using the 'royal we'

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. None was provided, so we will have to dismiss it until some proof is provided. Nobody is dismissing proof here. They're only dismissive of the extraordinary claims that an immeasurable energy somehow inherent to some things has any effect beyond essentially the placebo effect. After all, there hasn't been any evidence which showed differently. If you have some stud…

And who's the authority on what's extraordinary then?

Energy is well defined.

There is no known form of energy that can do what the commenter is claiming it can.

So someone making a claim about the realness of reiki energy needs to either prove it and explain its properties in ways that are true of other forms of energy, or possibly more easily, they need to change their terminology.

The problem is that the reiki and homeopathy, etc practitioners deliberately abuse scientific terminology because it adds a veneer of believability to their otherwise outlandish claims. And it fools the layman into believing there is actually some science behind their claims.

If they did choose to use appropriate terminology based on the actual properties, they will find that terminology will converge to words and phrases like “placebo effect” and “emotional support” rather quickly, which cannot earn them hundreds of dollars an hour.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#187
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having been through psychotherapy, I can affirm it works. Spending an hour a week with someone patiently listening without judgement while I tell them everything that's been going on in my head. And sure enough, my emotional problems start to recede and I start to be more engaged with life, less depressed, and more able to function. I don't know if I'd call that placebo, though. I used to thing it was magic; I talk,…

It never worked for me. I always got the impression the therapist was blowing smoke up my ass. I also have a hard time rectifying the idea that you can pay someone to listen to you, and at the same time try and hold the belief they really care about and like you. If they care, why are they accepting money just to listen to you? To accept the premise of psychotherapy, and what they tell you in sessions, namely that th…

> hold the belief they really care about and like you.

I'm not sure this is ever a pre-requisite; this expectation might cause you to distrust the very thing that might help you. A therapist is a guide, not a friend. I have to dig up the studies (or feel free to google), but it's been shown that just going through a script produces measurable benefits on aggregate, regardless of the therapists' shortcomings. There's an analogy to physiotherapy. In physio, you're doing the work under a coach's care -- doesn't matter how you feel about the coach as long as the prescribed techniques are correct. Results will come.

Depending on your situation, you can even do CBT on yourself and see measurable benefits (Mind over Mood by Greenberger/Padesky is the usual recommendation; however YMMV -- not all pathologies respond to CBT). Not to say that there isn't a benefit to a truly empathetic therapist (there is -- you need someone you feel comfortable opening up to), but a suspension of disbelief seems to me to not be necessary. (source: personal experience)

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#188
post #129
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, the attitude one holds is important. People can sense that at some level. Subtle energy is real though. Reiki is one of the modalities that does not require being in person. There’s a bunch of weirder, more obscure modalities that can work with chronic pain, trauma, and the like.

Addressing the quiet downvoters. It upsets me how dismissive our culture can be. What if there's something to it? There's a rich history of people thinking that there is. Do they really not deserve a second thought? I wish everyone were always a skeptic, but never off-hand dismissive. To those entrusting our mainstream with authority on what's bullshit and what's not, remember that psychedelics research is still ille…

EDIT: This comment ended up way longer than I set out for it to be. The TL;DR is "I used to not get it. Now I get it, but I will still discourage it."

>Do they really not deserve a second thought?

People do deserve a second thought, as do enduring ideas, but not always a third. For some of us, on some matters, this is our third thought, or thirtieth thought, or more.

I am happy to put a name to my downvote, and to explain.

After many grumpy years becoming increasingly more despondent about people (friends, even partners) who would carry on about this "energy" nonsense, I became equally intolerable myself. The topic would elicit angry, knee-jerk reactions and loud denouncements, if only because I was so sick and tired of it.

At some point, seven years ago, give or take, I had a revelation vis-à-vis the linguistics of it all.

I would let hosh speak for themselves, but for many people I have known the "energy" isn't real (or fake!) in any physical sense. They are not trying to express a strong ontological opinion about a human's ability to control a specific-yet-ill-defined force of nature. They are using the word as an all-encompassing metaphor for a large, flexible, ever-changing collection of experiences, both sensory and internal: sometimes your subtle body language, or emotional cues (intentional or unintentional), or their own projections of your mental state. There's probably a more precise vocabulary for any specific instance or combination of sensations, but many people are satisfied by sorting their experiences into just "feels good" and "feels bad", or the slightly-better-sounding "positive energy" and "negative energy".

I still remember someone who befriended me recounting the why. They had taken the initiative to walk through a large gathering, and seek me out because they "felt the energy I was sending them". I definitely was not in control of any energy, never mind sending it. It took time to pry out the specifics, but ultimately what they meant was that I looked friendly and seemed engaged in the conversation I was having.

I don't doubt that most people making statements about energy that they feel (or are "sending"), are genuinely having some internal experience and are describing it. But they aren't producing vibrations from their energy gland and evoking energy particles towards my energy gland. At least thus far that is not a thing we know humans to have and do.

Even after realizing this, and becoming more contained in my reactions, I still find the term imprecise at best, and an enabler of harm at worst. I will continue to discourage it whenever I can.

To directly address hosh's phrasing, the closest I could come to agreeing-to-disagree on "Subtle energy is real though", would be to phrase it as "The idea of a 'subtle energy' is a useful metaphor that sometimes helps some people reason about their experiences". Saying it "is real" in a definitive physical manner is ridiculous, by the precise dictionary definition: "deserving or inviting derision or mockery; absurd".

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#189

> Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it? It doesn't. Intro section on Wikipedia [0] already lists five studies that concluded it doesn't work: "Clinical research does not show reiki to be effective as a treatment for any medical condition, including cancer,[4][5] diabetic neuropathy,[6] or anxiety and depression,[7] therefore it should not replace conventional medical treatment. There is no proof of the effective…

An interesting point TFA makes is that it doesn't have to beat placebo: the placebo effect itself provides therapeutic benefit!

> Ted Kaptchuk, a Harvard Medical School professor and one of the lead researchers, theorizes that the placebo effect is, in the words of the Times article, “a biological response to an act of caring; that somehow the encounter itself calls forth healing and that the more intense and focused it is, the more healing it evokes.”

I dug up an article in which he explores this further and it's an angle I haven't considered before [1]:

> More recently, however, experts have concluded that reacting to a placebo is not proof that a certain treatment doesn't work, but rather that another, non-pharmacological mechanism may be present.

> How placebos work is still not quite understood, but it involves a complex neurobiological reaction that includes everything from increases in feel-good neurotransmitters, like endorphins and dopamine, to greater activity in certain brain regions linked to moods, emotional reactions, and self-awareness. All of it can have therapeutic benefit. "The placebo effect is a way for your brain to tell the body what it needs to feel better," says Kaptchuk.

> But placebos are not all about releasing brainpower. You also need the ritual of treatment. [...] You receive all kinds of exotic pills and undergo strange procedures. All this can have a profound impact on how the body perceives symptoms because you feel you are getting attention and care."

If reiki can evoke this effect consistently, reliably and cheaply at scale (and this is believable, because according to TFA, the lot of the practice is just physical touch in ways that the body might perceive as caring?) - perhaps there actually is value in it?

[1] https://www.health.harvard.edu/mental-health/the-power-of-th...

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#190
post #189

> Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it? It doesn't. Intro section on Wikipedia [0] already lists five studies that concluded it doesn't work: "Clinical research does not show reiki to be effective as a treatment for any medical condition, including cancer,[4][5] diabetic neuropathy,[6] or anxiety and depression,[7] therefore it should not replace conventional medical treatment. There is no proof of the effective…

An interesting point TFA makes is that it doesn't have to beat placebo: the placebo effect itself provides therapeutic benefit! > Ted Kaptchuk, a Harvard Medical School professor and one of the lead researchers, theorizes that the placebo effect is, in the words of the Times article, “a biological response to an act of caring; that somehow the encounter itself calls forth healing and that the more intense and focused…

Yeah, but how does placebo actually work? :D

If it works, why don't we use it for our benefit?

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