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Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

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Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#211
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Addressing the quiet downvoters. It upsets me how dismissive our culture can be. What if there's something to it? There's a rich history of people thinking that there is. Do they really not deserve a second thought? I wish everyone were always a skeptic, but never off-hand dismissive. To those entrusting our mainstream with authority on what's bullshit and what's not, remember that psychedelics research is still ille…

I think there are two components here. One is people reporting their experience. We should definitely honor that. But the other is people making claims of fact based on their experience. That's something people need to be responsible about, because it imposes a burden on the rest of us, and can be actively harmful. So if somebody sees funny lights in the skies, great! I would like to hear about their experience. But…

What if there are some things where scientific objectivity and scientific method breaks down, and is incapable of exploring?

It's ok if you feel that what I said was irresponsible. I know that is the mainstream view of things, and I expected a lot of backlash for posting a comment on this.

I usually hang out with the crowd where the experience and reality of subtle energy is not in doubt. Among them are the people for whom ... let's just say, something in then turns on (or something), and they are experiencing a number of phenomenas which includes subtle energy. Some of it are triggered by psychedelics, and some of it is not. For them, they experience what you feel: cognitive dissonance, anxiety, fear, anger. They freak out.

Among them are both people who actively sought it out ... and people who are open-minded skeptics. At that point, they are lost. The responsible thing at that point is to provide a framework to help them make sense of it. The ones who are skeptical appreciate it. They have the opportunity to explore and test out the claims for themselves.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Modern medicine, with the way hospitals and health insurance are run, do not and cannot address, for economic reasons, a pretty important aspect, albeit subjective, which is well-being. The "economic reasons" are just the preferences of the rich & powerful. Resources could be allocated in other ways. It is just that those that call the shots are not interested. In the US, they also managed to convince a large part…

I dream of a species which doesn't use tribal psychology to explain complex phenomena. Yes yes, "the rich and powerful" are "greedy and selfish". Yes yes, they brainwashed everyone. You look at limited resources and are disheartened by your conspiratorial fantasies explaining their limitation. I look at you and I'm disheartened that you mistake limitation for conspiracy, and sustainable distribution for greed. What a…

Couldn't the truth be somewhere in the middle?

Clearly both are different ways of looking at the same phenomenon. Emphasizing different parts of the whole truth.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#213
It's not so strange that Reiki works; it's a form of placebo effect. Placebos work, despite there provably being no active ingredient at work, and there being no reason at all for them to work except for the belief of the recipient. There's a good reason why new medicine needs to be proven to be better than a placebo in a double-blind study, and not merely better than no treatment at all with patients who know what they're getting. It is because a placebo does have effect.

Of course this belief is not going to cure cancer or broken bones, but it can reduce pain, nausea or affect other feelings. And feelings do matter. Our mind is not detached from our body, it is part of it. What we believe influences what we do, how our bodies react. How our bodies heal.

As a parent, I cure a lot of my kid's injuries with a kiss. It's surprisingly effective. No idea why. It's pure placebo, but it helps.

Placebos are still a poorly understood field. I've read that the placebo effect has been getting measurably stronger of the past few decades. How is that possible? And the size and colour of placebo pills matters. Believing that the placebo is the real thing rather than a placebo also helps, but even if you do know it's just a placebo, it can still have some effect.

The human mind is weird and still poorly understood. I don't want to get mystical about it; the mumbo jumbo behind reiki with its ki energy and all is most likely total nonsense. But our mind is part of our body, and what we think and believe influences what we do and how our body behaves. So believing in it may still help, which creates an ethical conundrum: is it okay to lie to someone when that lie has been proven to be good for their health? I honestly don't know. I often think I'm too skeptical to receive much benefit from these 'alternative treatments', just like a kiss is unlikely to make an adult's pain go away. I like believing the truth. But in this case believing the lie might be better for you. I'm still not sure how I feel about that.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#214

> Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it? It doesn't. Intro section on Wikipedia [0] already lists five studies that concluded it doesn't work: "Clinical research does not show reiki to be effective as a treatment for any medical condition, including cancer,[4][5] diabetic neuropathy,[6] or anxiety and depression,[7] therefore it should not replace conventional medical treatment. There is no proof of the effective…

Placebo is known to be good!

It's reasonable that Reiki should be compared with no intervention, which is the realistic alternative.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#215

I'm fascinated that, as far as I can tell, there's a lot of disagreement here about whether this is "mumbo jumbo" or not, when nobody is addressing the major aspect that differentiates reiki from other non-traditional medicines -- which is that it is based on touch . We're social animals. I've never had reiki but I have spent some time in hospitals. You know what you NEVER get in a hospital? Someone touching you in a…

From my brief meeting with someone who did Reiki, it seemed to involve a lot of hovering, and zero touching. Maybe there are different styles.

I agree a touching studying would be worthwhile. But I'm not sure Reiki is evidence supporting one.

I googled a bit and found this:

> Will the Reiki Practitioner’s hands touch me in any way?

> At your option. Reiki may be done with a light gentle pressure static touch or the Practitioner’s hands may be a few inches/centimeters above your body at the hand positions with no actual touch. There are standard hand placements beginning at your head or feet, avoiding all sensitive body parts. Let your Practitioner know prior to the session which you prefer, light touch or no touch.

https://iarp.org/reiki-sessions-what-to-expect/

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only it is not based on touch. The "Reiki Master" quoted in the article says it works just as well at a distance. He also claims that it works on animals and plants and that many cats can perform Reiki on their owners.

This is why science asks more specific questions than "Does Reiki work?" We shouldn't let a self-proclaimed Reiki Master determine what we look at. I'd also add that we don't have to let them determine our terminology, either. If the touch parts of Reiki work, then there's no reason we should add an air of validity to all of Reiki by saying "Reiki works" instead of "touch therapy works" or something similar.

Exactly. What I'd like to see is Reiki practitioners who do not believe in the mumbo-jumbo, perhaps don't even know about it, but simply perform the same actions that the Reiki practitioners do. Will that matter for the effectiveness? Do they need to talk to the patient about healing energy channels, or can they talk about something else?

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#217
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't all psychotherapy in a way just a placebo? Absolutely not. It is one thing to just give someone a sugar pill or a random ritual and tell them "this will make you feel better". That's placebo. (Not saying it never works, just that's the definition of placebo.) It is another thing completely to help people realize which thought patterns and which conscious focus and which memories keep them stuck in old loops.…

It's not completely clear whether there are any psychotherapies that are better than placebos. Though you have to be careful how you define your placebo. One approach would be a sugar pill. But the patient would know that this is not psychotherapy. So it doesn't work as a proper placebo. A slightly better example is a heartwarming chat with a high status individual who is not schooled in any psychotherapy. Say a rand…

You've linked to the dodo bird hypothesis, but the dodo bird hypothesis does NOT claim that all psychotherapy is placebo. It claims that all or nearly all established evidence-supported treatments given by trained professionals produce very similar outcomes.

If you read deeper in the page you linked on the subject, it goes on to the actual conclusion that the common factors of psychotherapy - empathy, positive regard, strategic alliance, and others - are predictive of psychotherapeutic outcome across therapies. In addition, it is shown that many key features of modern psychotherapies including awareness of one's thoughts and emotions are essentially universal therapeutic components.

In the book on the subject by Wampold and Imel, they found real and significant difference between therapists on their ability to produce outcome based on these common factors. So while modern therapeutic models may be indistinguishable in terms of outcome, modern therapists are not. And there IS such a thing as better vs worse therapy. And this is an ongoing research area.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#218
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An interesting point TFA makes is that it doesn't have to beat placebo: the placebo effect itself provides therapeutic benefit! > Ted Kaptchuk, a Harvard Medical School professor and one of the lead researchers, theorizes that the placebo effect is, in the words of the Times article, “a biological response to an act of caring; that somehow the encounter itself calls forth healing and that the more intense and focused…

Yeah, but how does placebo actually work? :D If it works, why don't we use it for our benefit?

I think that is exactly what Reiki is!

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#219

> Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it? It doesn't. Intro section on Wikipedia [0] already lists five studies that concluded it doesn't work: "Clinical research does not show reiki to be effective as a treatment for any medical condition, including cancer,[4][5] diabetic neuropathy,[6] or anxiety and depression,[7] therefore it should not replace conventional medical treatment. There is no proof of the effective…

Placebo is known to be good! It's reasonable that Reiki should be compared with no intervention, which is the realistic alternative.

Reasonable if evaluating your treatment options, and those are the only two available to you.

Not reasonable if you are trying to determine the best treatment options and others exist, such as "anything with actual clinical trials that show it more effective than placebo", which is hardly an unrealistic alternative.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#220
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These two responses are not equal, as every claim made by anyone should fall into category 1 until proven otherwise. Response 2 admits the possibility of better theories about the world being possible, while refusing to do the actual science that would prove their existence. Claims about alternative medicine don't even get to start from this generous position because the field has produced reams upon reams of utter-a…

It's all mumbo jumbo is equivalent to 'it has been proven not to work'. That is a strong position to take, not a default one. The second is too hand-wavy to even really call a position. Note that it's generally important to separate the possible effectiveness of a technique from the beliefs about why it may be effective that practitioners hold. Willowbark is an effective remedy for some ailments, not because of some…

There is already quite a bit of literature on the placebo effect. I think the effectiveness of Reiki is just another form of the placebo effect. It appears something is being done, and sometimes that's enough to make the patient feel better and help their recovery.

More research is absolutely warranted, though. The hows and whys of the placebo effect are still largely unknown.

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