Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it? • Hacker News Board

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#191

Post by GlenTheMachine » Fri, Apr 03, 2020, 2:12 PM UTC

I'm fascinated that, as far as I can tell, there's a lot of disagreement here about whether this is "mumbo jumbo" or not, when nobody is addressing the major aspect that differentiates reiki from other non-traditional medicines -- which is that it is based on touch.

We're social animals. I've never had reiki but I have spent some time in hospitals. You know what you NEVER get in a hospital? Someone touching you in a way that isn't associated with a (usually painful) medical procedure. There is literally no aspect of hospital life that accommodates human sociality. So the idea that someone comes in to your hospital room and touches you gently and that makes you feel better? OF COURSE it makes you feel better. In the same way that therapy dogs make you feel better. It's social touch. It's pleasant. It addresses an incredibly deep-seated need in the human psyche, one that if it is not met eventually results in - if nothing else - significant mental health issues.

So it seems to me that the right scientific study to do here is not whether reiki improves on (say) chemotherapy outcomes; it's whether any sort of touch therapy, including therapy animals or just regular hugs from family, results in improved outcomes.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#192

Post by jacobush » Fri, Apr 03, 2020, 2:13 PM UTC

rikelmens wrote: post #190

dcx wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An interesting point TFA makes is that it doesn't have to beat placebo: the placebo effect itself provides therapeutic benefit! > Ted Kaptchuk, a Harvard Medical School professor and one of the lead researchers, theorizes that the placebo effect is, in the words of the Times article, “a biological response to an act of caring; that somehow the encounter itself calls forth healing and that the more intense and focused…

Yeah, but how does placebo actually work? :D If it works, why don't we use it for our benefit?

We do, but often not very explicitly. But it's definitely practiced in medicine all the time. The doctor silently thinks for a while, then gives some stern warnings and prescribe some pills. You leave, so grateful for living in a civilised time and place.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#193

Post by 0xcde4c3db » Fri, Apr 03, 2020, 2:15 PM UTC

Qasaur wrote: post #132

normalnorm wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Modern medicine, with the way hospitals and health insurance are run, do not and cannot address, for economic reasons, a pretty important aspect, albeit subjective, which is well-being. The "economic reasons" are just the preferences of the rich & powerful. Resources could be allocated in other ways. It is just that those that call the shots are not interested. In the US, they also managed to convince a large part…

>I dream of an economic system that serves human beings instead of the numerical abstractions behind which the rich and powerful hide their extreme selfishness. This is what capitalism is in its essence - a complex decentralised pricing mechanism where every human's choices is taken into account on the free market. The problem is that it has been corrupted by cronyism which has indirectly destroyed the human element…

> This is what capitalism is in its essence - a complex decentralised pricing mechanism where every human's choices is taken into account on the free market.

That's what capitalism is in a world populated by Homo economicus. We have to deal with it in a world populated by Homo sapiens, who are notably clumsy at separating capital allocation concerns from social dominance concerns (when we even bother to try).

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#194

Post by op03 » Fri, Apr 03, 2020, 2:15 PM UTC

mjburgess wrote: post #184

normalnorm wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Modern medicine, with the way hospitals and health insurance are run, do not and cannot address, for economic reasons, a pretty important aspect, albeit subjective, which is well-being. The "economic reasons" are just the preferences of the rich & powerful. Resources could be allocated in other ways. It is just that those that call the shots are not interested. In the US, they also managed to convince a large part…

I dream of a species which doesn't use tribal psychology to explain complex phenomena. Yes yes, "the rich and powerful" are "greedy and selfish". Yes yes, they brainwashed everyone. You look at limited resources and are disheartened by your conspiratorial fantasies explaining their limitation. I look at you and I'm disheartened that you mistake limitation for conspiracy, and sustainable distribution for greed. What a…

Disappointment is good. It keeps us (atleast some) looking for ways to change, upgrade those tools of thought, push against those limitations and breakthrough.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#195

Post by JoeAltmaier » Fri, Apr 03, 2020, 2:17 PM UTC

Why? Easy - just phoning outpatients 2 days later helps with reported post-operative pain and adjustment. Its the human factor. We respond to touch and concern.

Note its not quite placebo - because it provokes actual physiological changes.

My local hospital has a Yoga class for seniors waiting for their Residency postings. Helps a lot to survive the stress. Nothing surprising about that either.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#196

Post by stan_rogers » Fri, Apr 03, 2020, 2:17 PM UTC

switch007 wrote: post #159

sorokod wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The homeopathic a&e: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0

> Nurse: Strength? > Doctor: 1 part in a million > Nurse: Are you sure? It looks serious > Doctor: You're right, we need to strengthen the dose: 1 part in 10 million Hah!

...and that's using numbers people can sort of begin to fathom so they can get a laugh. That's only 7X. 30C is the "OMG potent" dilution in homeopathy - and that's one part in 10^60.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#197

Post by fooblat » Fri, Apr 03, 2020, 2:18 PM UTC

GlenTheMachine wrote: post #191

I'm fascinated that, as far as I can tell, there's a lot of disagreement here about whether this is "mumbo jumbo" or not, when nobody is addressing the major aspect that differentiates reiki from other non-traditional medicines -- which is that it is based on touch . We're social animals. I've never had reiki but I have spent some time in hospitals. You know what you NEVER get in a hospital? Someone touching you in a…

Only it is not based on touch. The "Reiki Master" quoted in the article says it works just as well at a distance. He also claims that it works on animals and plants and that many cats can perform Reiki on their owners.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#198

Post by hosh » Fri, Apr 03, 2020, 2:21 PM UTC

driverdan wrote: post #181

hosh wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, the attitude one holds is important. People can sense that at some level. Subtle energy is real though. Reiki is one of the modalities that does not require being in person. There’s a bunch of weirder, more obscure modalities that can work with chronic pain, trauma, and the like.

> Subtle energy is real though. Do you actually understand what the word "energy" means? What form of energy is it? Can you demonstrate with a controlled scientific test this energy?

"Subtle energy" is a specific term that is not the same as the description of a physical energy. I understand what the word "energy" means in the scientific sense, but do _you_ understand what the term "subtle energy" means?

Subtle energy is something that can be experienced. Among those who do experience it, if it is a hallucination, it's a shared hallucination.

It has something to do with consciousness. I have severe doubts it can ever be describable or disprovable with a controlled scientific test. That is, I thiknk there are limits to what the scientific method can determine. I don't think it is measurable, at least not with the technology we can construct. It is not electromagnetic, though some forms may be experienced as having electric or magnetic properties. But one property that is not described by physical description is that it carries information: emotion, awareness, sentience, in varying degrees.

However, I know of people who have tried, though I haven't seen what they published about it.

It is replicable: do the correct set of practices long enough, and you can experience it. (And this is why people freak out when those practices actually works). However, I don't think it can ever be objectively measured.

Psychedelics can sometimes trigger the experience of it. With the use of microdosing and clinical applications of psychedelics becoming mainstream, I expect more people will start encountering this.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#199

Post by yourapostasy » Fri, Apr 03, 2020, 2:21 PM UTC

rikelmens wrote: post #190

dcx wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An interesting point TFA makes is that it doesn't have to beat placebo: the placebo effect itself provides therapeutic benefit! > Ted Kaptchuk, a Harvard Medical School professor and one of the lead researchers, theorizes that the placebo effect is, in the words of the Times article, “a biological response to an act of caring; that somehow the encounter itself calls forth healing and that the more intense and focused…

Yeah, but how does placebo actually work? :D If it works, why don't we use it for our benefit?

> ...but how does placebo actually work?

Whatever the mechanism factors turn out to be, I would not be at all surprised if it involves areas of study that clinical studies currently dismiss as unimportant.

> If it works, why don't we use it for our benefit?

Currently difficult to control outcomes because we understand so little of it, and a possibility that it would depress the financial results of a lot of current US "medical/healthcare industry" stakeholders if it turns out for example, having a doting Israeli grandmother dropping by each day with steaming hot matzo ball soup with some unmentionable ingredient that still tastes bitter as hell, a handful of friends calling with jokes, and a couple hours a day in the sauna works cheaper and just as well as a $200 antiviral prescription.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#200

Post by fooblat » Fri, Apr 03, 2020, 2:22 PM UTC

dcx wrote: post #189

ZeljkoS wrote: post #182

> Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it? It doesn't. Intro section on Wikipedia [0] already lists five studies that concluded it doesn't work: "Clinical research does not show reiki to be effective as a treatment for any medical condition, including cancer,[4][5] diabetic neuropathy,[6] or anxiety and depression,[7] therefore it should not replace conventional medical treatment. There is no proof of the effective…

An interesting point TFA makes is that it doesn't have to beat placebo: the placebo effect itself provides therapeutic benefit! > Ted Kaptchuk, a Harvard Medical School professor and one of the lead researchers, theorizes that the placebo effect is, in the words of the Times article, “a biological response to an act of caring; that somehow the encounter itself calls forth healing and that the more intense and focused…

Ted Kaptchuck is not a credible source. He is an altmed activist who plays games with the definition of placebo to push his agenda. His studies are universally flawed[0] and manipulated.

0. https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/ted-kaptchuk-versus-placebo...