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Introduction to Permaculture (1994)

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Re: Introduction to Permaculture (1994)

#31

Post by Kye »

jmiskovic wrote: post #6
PostOnce wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can also return the book instantly if you're not actively reading it, sometimes i check them out, flick through them, and return them, then check em out again later when I want to read more, instead of hanging on to them for 2 weeks Just something I was thinking about earlier now that archive.org is getting popular.

Off topic, but I feel that analog library terminology really doesn't carry over well to digital libraries. Most likely because artificial scarcity is so unnatural concept. I wonder how digital libraries will look like and operate in 10 years.

One upside to the covid-19 outbreak is it's introducing a lot of people to the precarious nature of life in countries with a weak social safety net. Copyright is already a compromise between the needs for survival under a capitalist system and the need for the products of culture to return to ownership by the people after a time.

Someone out there is spending their extra home time working on a new compromise. I don't think it'll involve the death of capitalism in our lifetime, but I do think it'll involve a wider awareness of the difference between a market problem and a collective action problem.

Re: Introduction to Permaculture (1994)

#32

Post by mikorym »

johnpowell wrote: post #14

I bought this book at a place called "Hungry Head Books" in Eugene Oregon in 1997. I was working as a projectionist at the time and pretty much had to kill 30 hours a week in the booth. This was before wifi or cell phones so I would buy a few books each week and just sit on the carpet and read while the projectors did their thing. I was not a fan of the hippies. I lived on 15th and High (that is not a joke) when Jerr…

I think permaculture has more to do with culture than it has to do with agriculture. What I mean by this is that agriculture has become, nowadays, the increasingly scientific study of how how to produce the highest yields for crop types that have the highest return on investment for that area. The naming conventions of how practices are done do not influence the practices themselves.

The reason why I bother to make this point is because there are many terms in the agricultural scene that are marketing terms ("organic", "bio" and even "free range"). They are marketing terms because they are not well-defined; they are well-defined only up to sticker restrictions. For example, if you buy "orangutan sensitive palm oil", do you have any idea what that means? Can we know that they don't cut corners? The term "organic" is especially dangerous, because of its connotation to organic vs. inorganic chemistry and the loss of information when converting between the technical definitions and cultural perceptions.

In Southern Africa, almost all game meat biltong is free-range, hormone free, pesticide free and yet it is not marketed as such, because those properties are a given! In contrast you'll have eggs in the same grocery store that are labelled as "free-range", because the chickens are in housing that can be physically picked up and moved around.

Re: Introduction to Permaculture (1994)

#33

Post by epistasis »

dntbnmpls wrote: post #13
fouc wrote: post #5

It's interesting that Permaculture is already more than 26 years old. It's got quite a number ideas that probably seem very controversial to the average gardener or small farmer. But the genius of Permaculture is that it's also way less effort. Work with nature, rather than fight it. Chop and drop. Pull out weeds then drop them on the ground, let it turn into mulch.

> It's interesting that Permaculture is already more than 26 years old. The date actually had me wondering. At what point do we start to refer to 1994 as the "1900s". We are already 2 decades into the 2000s, but it feels strange to refer to 1994 as the 1900s? Wonder which decade in the 1900s people started feeling comfortable referring to 1894 as "the 1800s".

That's true, and I feel the same about the oddity of referring to the 1990s as the 1900s

In contrast, I think 20th century versus 21st century doesn't feel as wrong, and I regularly use 20th century to refer to time periods that include the 1990s.

Re: Introduction to Permaculture (1994)

#34

Post by gdubs »

dbmueller wrote: post #7

So, I guess in the meantime some developments on the idea have been made. What would a modern intro/reference be?

“Restoration Agriculture” by Mark Shepard is a great book. It’s about his project, “New Forest Farm”, and is heavily influenced by Permaculture. He pulls from a lot of references like “One Straw Revolution”, etc, with a heavy focus on agroforestry (where tree crops and more traditional crops are grown in a mixed system).

“The Resilient Farm and Homestead”, by Ben Falk is another great one — full of illustrations and practical ideas (like using a compost pile to power a radiant heat system.)

Re: Introduction to Permaculture (1994)

#35

Post by gdubs »

mikorym wrote: post #32
johnpowell wrote: post #14

I bought this book at a place called "Hungry Head Books" in Eugene Oregon in 1997. I was working as a projectionist at the time and pretty much had to kill 30 hours a week in the booth. This was before wifi or cell phones so I would buy a few books each week and just sit on the carpet and read while the projectors did their thing. I was not a fan of the hippies. I lived on 15th and High (that is not a joke) when Jerr…

I think permaculture has more to do with culture than it has to do with agriculture. What I mean by this is that agriculture has become, nowadays, the increasingly scientific study of how how to produce the highest yields for crop types that have the highest return on investment for that area. The naming conventions of how practices are done do not influence the practices themselves. The reason why I bother to make t…

This is a really insightful take. I’ve read a lot of books influenced by Mollison, and they’re all heavy on the agricultural side. Finally reading the original and it’s clear that as you say, it’s more about the whole cultural system — community, etc.

With everything that’s been happening, I’ve been thinking a lot about “resilience”, and how it really begins at the household level and goes upwards from there to community, state, country.

[Think of how individual houses being prepared enough to weather a months-long emergency leads to a stronger community, where emergency resources can be targeted on the most vulnerable, etc. Contrast with our current predicament of on-demand everything.]

It’s really interesting to go back to “first principles” in this context, and get a new appreciation for what Mollison was trying to do with Permaculture.

Fun fact: the phrase “permanent agriculture” goes back to a book from the 1930s called “Tree Crops”. It contains a great quote by FDR:

“The nation that destroys its soil destroys itself.”

Re: Introduction to Permaculture (1994)

#36

Post by Oxix »

johnpowell wrote: post #14

I bought this book at a place called "Hungry Head Books" in Eugene Oregon in 1997. I was working as a projectionist at the time and pretty much had to kill 30 hours a week in the booth. This was before wifi or cell phones so I would buy a few books each week and just sit on the carpet and read while the projectors did their thing. I was not a fan of the hippies. I lived on 15th and High (that is not a joke) when Jerr…

Heh. I lived there at the time, as well, and the Eugene punk scene had a particular charm! Given that I sometimes hung out with a couple of film projectionists we probably chatted at some time (:

Anyway, same experience with this book. I ended up on a remote farm in alpine Europe in the 00's and otherwise seem to have retained much of the lessons after all these years.

Re: Introduction to Permaculture (1994)

#38

Post by arthurofbabylon »

Bill Mollison's writing has changed my approach to design. The limit truly is creativity. Anything goes.

Importantly, permaculture design applies to any situation: a verdant mediterranean garden, a driveway, a digital product, how you wash dishes, how you connect with a loved one. The design principles in permaculture are timeless – they're applicable in every context.

Re: Introduction to Permaculture (1994)

#39

Post by intrepidhero »

numbsafari wrote: post #20

I enrolled my wife and I in a local Permaculture Design Course as part of a Christmas present (she got us into bees last year). Unlike most 2-week intensives, ours is taught every other weekend for about 3 months. I think many people here on HN would be interested in permaculture. There’s a lot of the same design and systems thinking that appeal to computer programmers. As noted by others, permaculture is also really…

Cool idea!

I think permaculture encourages us to think in terms of large scale systems like ecosystems and societies and in terms of small systems, like individuals and families, and consider the consequences of our actions in terms of whether they weaken those systems or whether they strengthen them. As a simple example: we all have to eat. But if I grow food (or eat food that was grown) using methods that deplete the soil of nutrients that action weakens the overall system. Permaculture principles would teach me that I should grow my food using methods that improve the soil it is grown in.

Attempting to translate this into software engineering, suggests to me we should design systems and code with an eye towards the future. Our programs should be readable, maintainable and robust to unexpected input. They should make careful use of resources. They should be secure. We should realize the things we build are not going to exist in a vacuum but within an overall system (of the internet and society at large) and it is our goal to strengthen rather than to exploit that system.

I'm just brainstorming here. Would love to hear more considered opinions and thoughts if anyone has them to share.

Re: Introduction to Permaculture (1994)

#40

Post by whatshisface »

mikorym wrote: post #32
johnpowell wrote: post #14

I bought this book at a place called "Hungry Head Books" in Eugene Oregon in 1997. I was working as a projectionist at the time and pretty much had to kill 30 hours a week in the booth. This was before wifi or cell phones so I would buy a few books each week and just sit on the carpet and read while the projectors did their thing. I was not a fan of the hippies. I lived on 15th and High (that is not a joke) when Jerr…

I think permaculture has more to do with culture than it has to do with agriculture. What I mean by this is that agriculture has become, nowadays, the increasingly scientific study of how how to produce the highest yields for crop types that have the highest return on investment for that area. The naming conventions of how practices are done do not influence the practices themselves. The reason why I bother to make t…

>The term "organic" is especially dangerous, because of its connotation to organic vs. inorganic chemistry and the loss of information when converting between the technical definitions and cultural perceptions.

In the United States, "organic" in the context of food is not a cultural perception, it is an FDA-regulated certified word with a very strict definition and penalties for misuse.

https://www.ams.usda.gov/about-ams/programs-offices/national...

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