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Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

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Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#71

Post by Erlich_Bachman »

eru wrote: post #67
Erlich_Bachman wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't all psychotherapy in a way just a placebo? Absolutely not. It is one thing to just give someone a sugar pill or a random ritual and tell them "this will make you feel better". That's placebo. (Not saying it never works, just that's the definition of placebo.) It is another thing completely to help people realize which thought patterns and which conscious focus and which memories keep them stuck in old loops.…

It's not completely clear whether there are any psychotherapies that are better than placebos. Though you have to be careful how you define your placebo. One approach would be a sugar pill. But the patient would know that this is not psychotherapy. So it doesn't work as a proper placebo. A slightly better example is a heartwarming chat with a high status individual who is not schooled in any psychotherapy. Say a rand…

> It's not completely clear whether there are any psychotherapies that are better than placebos.

What can be said for sure, and which was my original point, is that regardless of which one is "better", they are not the same thing at all. They are two very different distinct concepts that describe two very different existing phenomena.

Incidentally, it is very clear to me, based on my life experience (and that includes using critical thinking to approach life) and experience of many other people I've met that in most cases real psychotherapy is quite effective, unlike most uses of placebo. Although there seem to be cases of placebo that are exceptionally effective too, so who knows?

This is of course just an anecdote and I don't have any studies at my fingertips right now that somehow calculate and compare the relative effectiveness of the two. I would imagine that using and especially scaling placebo in effective manner is difficult because it relies on active ignorance of the user.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#72

Post by hosh »

ganzuul wrote: post #64
hcarvalhoalves wrote: post #23

> The ailments that Reiki seems to treat most effectively are those that orthodox medicine struggles to manage: pain, anxiety, chronic disease, and the fear or discomfort of facing not only the suffering of illness but also the suffering of treatment. This is key. Modern medicine, with the way hospitals and health insurance are run, do not and cannot address, for economic reasons, a pretty important aspect, albeit su…

Reiki focuses specifically on this aspect in emphasizing the focus, intent and emotional commitment of the practitioner. Replace "energy" with "emotion" and it begins to look legitimate.

Sure, the attitude one holds is important. People can sense that at some level.

Subtle energy is real though. Reiki is one of the modalities that does not require being in person.

There’s a bunch of weirder, more obscure modalities that can work with chronic pain, trauma, and the like.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#73

Post by sumofi »

Garbage :-(

Believe in Placebo believe in Nocebo as well.

Where do you draw the line? I draw it at unscientific.

What do you think has all this shit done for our society?

Reike, antivax, flat Earth, akkupunkture, traditional Chinese medicine, homeopathy, fake news.

It's all bullshit. If you as a human just believe in stuff without effidence you are dangerous.

Climate change? Oh no someone told me it's a hoax to get us to buy solar power. How do you argument with those people? You can't.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#74

Post by _y5hn »

hyko wrote: post #56
crispinb wrote: post #22

Almost more interesting than Reiki itself is the reflexive responses, bifurcating essentially into: 1. it's all mumbo jumbo 2. there's more in heaven and earth, my son Note that neither group is particularly interested in the empirical evidence, though group 1 will tend to take a louder cherry-picking feint at it. An empiricist mindset is really hard for humans to inhabit. We (scientistic hard-heads included) judge p…

These two responses are not equal, as every claim made by anyone should fall into category 1 until proven otherwise. Response 2 admits the possibility of better theories about the world being possible, while refusing to do the actual science that would prove their existence. Claims about alternative medicine don't even get to start from this generous position because the field has produced reams upon reams of utter-a…

Nobody is able to practice 2 while holding 1 as belief. The opposite is ironically possible.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#75

Post by sfj »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #61
chrischen wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a placebo works generally then it works. Isn't all psychotherapy in a way just a placebo?

Having been through psychotherapy, I can affirm it works. Spending an hour a week with someone patiently listening without judgement while I tell them everything that's been going on in my head. And sure enough, my emotional problems start to recede and I start to be more engaged with life, less depressed, and more able to function. I don't know if I'd call that placebo, though. I used to thing it was magic; I talk,…

It never worked for me. I always got the impression the therapist was blowing smoke up my ass.

I also have a hard time rectifying the idea that you can pay someone to listen to you, and at the same time try and hold the belief they really care about and like you. If they care, why are they accepting money just to listen to you? To accept the premise of psychotherapy, and what they tell you in sessions, namely that they do care, it seems you need to achieve a suspension of disbelief that I never could.

I've always wondered what sort of damage that could do to you psychologically, holding that belief for a long period of time. I mean, the person who you place the most trust in, who knows you best, is also charging you an arm and a leg every week. You paid for their summer home.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#76

Post by kingludite »

crispinb wrote: post #22

Almost more interesting than Reiki itself is the reflexive responses, bifurcating essentially into: 1. it's all mumbo jumbo 2. there's more in heaven and earth, my son Note that neither group is particularly interested in the empirical evidence, though group 1 will tend to take a louder cherry-picking feint at it. An empiricist mindset is really hard for humans to inhabit. We (scientistic hard-heads included) judge p…

My reflexive reaction is: I don't know. I'm not interested in empirical evidence but if there is evidence of some effect I hope the right people show an interest in it.

I keep wondering what the big deal is with admitting you don't know something. I don't know C++, I should have an opinion about some C++ library? Does it work or not?

When asked to defend my opinion about Reiki I would have to resort to a completely moronic line of reasoning that is of no use to anyone. I leave this to the professional skeptics.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#77

Post by _y5hn »

seer wrote: post #68
mercer wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I once started learning some chinese martial arts, and the instructor was a true believer in more than the fighting techniques, but the spirituality that comes with it. Very easily debunked by modern fact based science. What kind of spirituality are you talking about, and how was this easily debunked? Honestly curious. I don't have any 'proper' spiritual beliefs myself, but I've found that a lot of them are dismiss…

Well for example all of the explanations of how the exercises worked were wrapped around "elements" - you know the usual fire, earth, water etc. And you had "channels" that you had to move energies through by ... rubbing them. The motions and the rubbing itself did help blood flow and it was quite a nice work out, but I'm quite confident there weren't small spirits of fire flowing down my skin, at least not in the se…

Breathing, visualisation, meditation, etc. may train to activate the brain and nervous system in different ways. Research show such practices even modify gene expressions by hormon signals.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#78

Post by _y5hn »

blast wrote: post #41
crispinb wrote: post #22

Almost more interesting than Reiki itself is the reflexive responses, bifurcating essentially into: 1. it's all mumbo jumbo 2. there's more in heaven and earth, my son Note that neither group is particularly interested in the empirical evidence, though group 1 will tend to take a louder cherry-picking feint at it. An empiricist mindset is really hard for humans to inhabit. We (scientistic hard-heads included) judge p…

There are two different kinds of empiricism, and they're in tension with each other. One kind is where specialists measure things and publish the measurements in journals. The other is where individuals try things for themselves and decide for themselves what they experienced.

Every new paradigm shift had to start with just one individual (or a situation with a core group).

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#79

Post by kingludite »

travisjungroth wrote: post #51
seer wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great comment and I apologize in advance for going off topic. We all have our mental models and it takes effort to re-evaluate and change them. And as the saying goes - there are no right models, only useful ones in some situations. Some are useful in more situations than others. Take “flat earth” model of the world. It’s not right, but it’s precise enough for the purposes of living in a village. Nothing wrong with t…

> Take “flat earth” model of the world. It’s not right, but it’s precise enough for the purposes of living in a village. Nothing wrong with that, its when you want to venture out, then you have to find a more precise one. I don’t think you have to have a more precise model. The modern world is incredibly tolerant of bad models. Last year, I visited four continents. I don’t think a single thing would have been differe…

My model is exact. I don't need my world to be round or flat. Until I do I really don't care. The superiority in this model is that it doesn't distract me from things I do care about. You just have to appreciate what little minds we have and how short it lasts.

This is a human doing a puzzle with 2 parts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4c1qhCtpAa4

This is a human doing a puzzle with 3 parts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zQmkyH0Mr0

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#80

Post by _y5hn »

Ididntdothis wrote: post #29
GuiA wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3. Humans tend to feel better when other humans take care of them, pay attention to them, touch them It’s not that crazy, and it’s based in empirical observation and consistent with our biological/medical understanding.

A lot of people still have the mindset that the body is a system with clear inputs and outputs and predictable outcomes. But in many cases the brain plays a big role so things like people feeling good and getting attention helps a lot. A lot of regular medicine feels very rushed and if you have a complex problem it's hard to get anybody to listen. I bet for things like chronic pain or chronic fatigue they would get b…

Reductionism is just one methodology of many, and has shortcomings regarding complexity, subjective experience and 3-many-body problems.
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