Planning and Managing Layoffs • Hacker News Board

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#151

Post by cwyers » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 5:57 PM UTC

kid_atticus wrote: post #74

cwyers wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true if you don't need recommendations from the people you're working with to get your next job, if you don't want to get promotions (which help you get better jobs down the road!), and if you are content to spend 40 hours a week from now until you retire just coasting through life. I think a better way to look at it is -- don't be loyal to something that can't be loyal to you. But you can and should let yours…

> for a company that you don’t own I think you're missing the key part here. Most tech workers do have some ownership in the companies which muddies the calculus a little bit. But if you don't have a stake in the company you are literally trading time for money. Work more time for the same money and you're just under-pricing your labor by an equivalent amount. Also, if you need to work overtime to get good recommenda…

Where did I say anything about working overtime? Here's the key quote from the post I was replying to:

"Just show up, do the bare minimum to meet expectations, finish your 8 hour shift and go home and enjoy quality time with your family."

It's possible to opt out of the bullshit conspicuous overwork that a lot of people engage in (although you should be prepared to face consequences for that!), and still do more than the bare minimum during the 40 hours you show up to work. And it may be better _for you_ to do so.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#152

Post by asdfasgasdgasdg » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 6:12 PM UTC

helij wrote: post #146

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you can look at this from a mercenary perspective too. It costs nothing more to show up and work hard than it does to show up and do the minimum. You're giving up the same amount of time either way. But there's a lot more upside for hard workers, at least at firms that have a career track for software engineers. There are other variables, but other things being equal, folks who get things done tend to advance…

Never in the history of the humanity was hard work rewarded the same as speaking and looking nicely.

Sure. Better to be beautiful and honey tongued than ugly and an asshole. But either way you're better off working hard than being lazy.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#153

Post by twomoretime » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 6:30 PM UTC

newswasboring wrote: post #144

twomoretime wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you work where all of management consists of lawyers? Even HR usually only keeps lawyers on retainer. The rest shouldn't really be that difficult if you're a competent person. I don't need training to show some combination of 1. I've been productive based on X and Y projects 2. I've saved/generated $X 3. I'm undervalued based on these x salaries or this average value from $reputable_website People treat nego…

Only the first point was about lawyers. The points you mentioned are coming from a place of privilege. If it was this easy everyone would have done it. I can say all this and my employer can say "ok go work for them" and then I have to uproot all my life because my visa is tied to my work. This is just one example, and I am not going to give any more because I don't think your are writing in good faith. You are not p…

> The points you mentioned are coming from a place of privilege

The fact that I disagree with you is not evidence of "bad faith." But since you bring up privilege, I think you're just making poor excuses. Your Visa situation does not represent the majority and dismissing every successful negotiation as "privileged" just breeds learned helplessness.

If you have authorization to work in the country you live in and you can demonstrate that you're being underpaid, the onus is on you to approach your boss and make a case. You can always start looking for another job if they politely refuse. Or start looking first and come back with offers. This doesn't require any magical privilege.

I'm also mildly offended that you believe yourself familiar with my situation. "Privilege" is turning into a racist and/or sexist slur. It's a blanket term used to excuse failure and breeds complacency when people hide behind it. There was no need to make this argument personal.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#154

Post by saiya-jin » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 6:32 PM UTC

nogabebop23 wrote: post #132

saiya-jin wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a bit sad (an quite prevalent in some industries) viewpoint. Maybe it comes to what makes you feel satisfied with yourself and happy - if its only work, then yes above is true. But those actually having the type of work worth such a sacrifice are miniscule, I guess 1-5% of HN readers. What about achieving happiness and self-fulfillment from other things than work? I couldn't care less about my (well paid & suc…

Why are their values less important than yours? Isn't it just as easy to look at what you consider this rich, fulfilling life and say "poor sucker is totally a slave to our social media culture; desperate to show us how wordly and alternative they are. Why can't they just be happy with the little things in life?" A lot easier to find joy in your work these days vs. activities and vacations too...

I see what you mean. I think the dying moment or few years before it are a good judge whether one lived a good life that one can be proud of. I struggle to see how corporate career is something that would get one there. This is purely my viewpoint of course, I have only my mindset and values. But its clear to me personally what I want in life and care about. That traveling (long term backpacking in India and other places) also gave me pretty good knowledge of myself.

As they say, 'whatever makes you happy'. Just consider long term happiness, and not only momentary kick.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#155

Post by notyourday » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 7:24 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #130

notyourday wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you are only doing a job for the financial payoff, then I guess. That's why it is a job, not a hobby.

You spend way too much time at your job not to enjoy it.

You would find that the more money you make, the more you are going to enjoy your job.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#156

Post by seanmcdirmid » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 7:41 PM UTC

notyourday wrote: post #155

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You spend way too much time at your job not to enjoy it.

You would find that the more money you make, the more you are going to enjoy your job.

Not everyone is like that, but to each their own.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#157

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 8:02 PM UTC

ShamelessC wrote: post #75

taurath wrote: post #17

A bit of criticism - it “normalizes” an 8 week severance as a ceiling - maybe in the high flying startup world but any big company especially with long tenure 8 weeks is a pittance, especially to someone having been there for 5 years. May be worth a note. > While it can sound jarring to say “and today is your last day,” it’s generally better for people because it makes it clear that there is a new normal and it start…

When you take someone’s badge most people who remain immediately starts to shun the laid off worker. Can you clarify what you mean here? Is this something that happens in your experience? I would personally never want to shun someone who just got laid off, especially if they were a friend. Your respect and trust of them as a person is immediately (rightly) seen as a lie. Am I misunderstanding you here? You're saying…

[deleted]

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#158

Post by taurath » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 8:03 PM UTC

ShamelessC wrote: post #75

taurath wrote: post #17

A bit of criticism - it “normalizes” an 8 week severance as a ceiling - maybe in the high flying startup world but any big company especially with long tenure 8 weeks is a pittance, especially to someone having been there for 5 years. May be worth a note. > While it can sound jarring to say “and today is your last day,” it’s generally better for people because it makes it clear that there is a new normal and it start…

When you take someone’s badge most people who remain immediately starts to shun the laid off worker. Can you clarify what you mean here? Is this something that happens in your experience? I would personally never want to shun someone who just got laid off, especially if they were a friend. Your respect and trust of them as a person is immediately (rightly) seen as a lie. Am I misunderstanding you here? You're saying…

Once you're gone in a company, you're gone - it tends to be that only the closest relationships will stick around, and everyone who you were moderately close with doesn't stick around.

I've had people who I've had mutually enjoyable interactions for years suddenly just stop talking entirely upon a layoff. Its in fact pretty common, I'd have to say.

> You're saying that the moment someone gets laid off you are justified in losing all respect for and trust of that person if you're still on the team? I have to believe people aren't that cruel in general.

Not at all what I meant! I meant the relationship between employee and employer (or manager) turns on a dime, if not only are they told you're laid off, but also immediately all of your badges and access are gone. Suddenly the place you feel like you've belonged is treating you like a trespasser or criminal and not to be trusted to even have door access.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#159

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 8:51 PM UTC

freepor wrote: post #62

nilkn wrote: post #4

Just ruminating here, but I didn’t fully understand the hesitance to do paycuts. Of course, I understand that in some cases the financial problem is severe enough that layoffs are the only option. But it’s conceivable that in many cases a simple, say, 20% cut to salaries across the board could be enough to tip the balance. Some employees will immediately start looking for another job, but that seems totally fine and…

This method will ensure you lose your top performers rather than your bottom performers.

[deleted]

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#160

Post by GCA10 » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 10:36 PM UTC

davidu wrote: post #55

GCA10 wrote: post #45

Most of this is good advice, but I'd disagree with declaring "Today is your last day." I've been on both sides of the layoff conversation, and usually there are some loose ends relating to work-in-progress that can be tidied up with dignity if everyone has a couple days to do it. We're talking about reworking next week's client meeting, or sorting out some team/project responsibilities that ought to be handed off cle…

Yep. I’m not sure you read the whole thing, as I cover the grandma birthday example. Sentiment-wise we agree, tactically it’s still not the best practice. I know it sounds like it is. It really depends on the maturity of the workforce and leadership, as I mention. For a lot of startups, that’s in short supply and just saying today is the last day of work is easiest. It shouldn’t have the feeling tossing them out. It…

Thanks for the very thoughtful reply. I like your option of semi-offering a couple days grace period but also letting the departing employee say: "Nope, I'm out of here."

From the employee side, there's a primal desire to control something about this unexpected and unwelcome process. Moving the last-day slider a day or two in either direction might hit the spot.