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Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawberries over Zoom’

latimes.com

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Re: Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawberries over Zoom’

#91

Post by lotsofpulp »

bilbo0s wrote: post #78
lotsofpulp wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would the value they create or "fair pay" be measured?

> How would the value they create [...] be measured? Even if it could, that value would be so enormous that there are simple economic constraints on what's possible in terms of remuneration. Lot's of people are allocated what are probably criminally small portions of the value they create. For instance, if the sanitation engineers in a city disappeared, you wouldn't want to be in that city 3 months later. The city's…

>Lot's of people are allocated what are probably criminally small portions of the value they create.

My comment was written to elucidate why "value they create" is a useless sentiment. For example, none of the paintings in Louvre or whatever museum have any value to me. But they do to other people, so it would be impossible to have a consensus on "value". Some people like strawberries and would value them more than people who don't like strawberries.

The purpose of paying someone is to perform the desired work. The amount paid is the signal to the person performing the work that the work you want to be done should be done rather than someone else's.

The purpose of paying someone is not to provide them with some nebulous concept of value or to make sure they have a minimum standard of housing and fed, etc. Those goals should be accomplished by other means (UBI or some other type of societal welfare system).

Re: Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawberries over Zoom’

#92

Post by xenocyon »

simonsarris wrote: post #5

I would think out of every job in a supply chain field workers would be some of the best protected by default. Not (often) working in air-recircuculated environments, many already wear face masks and gloves, less crowded than warehouses, working in the sun and often more humid environments. The big issues I think would be sick pay (mentioned), or migrating workers who travel very far, including across borders.

It has to do with their housing: very crowded, squalid conditions; such basic things as water to wash hands being carefully rationed to cut costs. (Source: NPR/PlanetMoney: https://www.npr.org/2020/03/25/821593542/episode-984-food-an...)

Re: Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawberries over Zoom’

#93

Post by gridlockd »

Red_Leaves_Flyy wrote: post #48
anoonmoose wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say "increase the cost of labor" like it's nothing. Fact is, industries like this couldn't be operated on the up and up in the US- people wouldn't buy the product at the price it'd need to be sold for. I'm not saying this to justify the current conditions, I'm just pointing out that it's this or an eradication of the industry. edit: an eradication I'm totally fine with.

If the industry can't survive by following the rules then the leaders of that industry who profited from illicit behaviors should go to prison for decades and their assets should be sold off to pay damages to the effected. The industry can correct itself or die off. If no one wants a product at a humane price then the industry should go extinct in a functioning society.

> The industry can correct itself or die off. If no one wants a product at a humane price then the industry should go extinct in a functioning society.

Okay, but is there a functioning society? Is there some welfare system where these people could take refuge?

I don't think so. These workers come all the way from some place where their situation wouldn't be any better, otherwise that's where they'd stay. Should the industry go extinct, they'd be strictly worse off.

Re: Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawberries over Zoom’

#94

Post by munk-a »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #80
wscott wrote: post #39

Sorry, I am going to be the insensitive sleazeball here. The point of staying at home is not that if you get this disease you are going to die. The issue is that if we ALL get it then a larger proportion of people are going to die because we don't have enough hospitals. We had to choose some people as being important enough that they are allowed to be out and about and use some of that valuable limited healthcare res…

I think it's pretty sad we passed a $2.2T stimulus bill, with $500Bn in unemployment benefits, so the average person that gets laid off can make about $60k a year (adjusted for taxes) to not work -- and we did hardly nothing to protect people that actually need to work and are at high risk! Worst of all, most of these jobs are low paying -- much less than you'd get from the current unemployment. We basically created…

Look, the vast majority of folks like to work. Some people will stop working but there are a number of older folks who worked as Doctors who are coming out of retirement to do their part.

I understand where you're getting this from but unfortunately it's an old conservative Meme that gave us such hits as "The Welfare Queen" - people legitimately don't like being on unemployment when they can be working. Perhaps we need to beef up social safety nets in general, and I'd be ecstatic if we came out of this crisis with a more healthy view of public healthcare - but this issue you're concerned about isn't an issue.

Re: Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawberries over Zoom’

#95

Post by triceratops »

anoonmoose wrote: post #41
tw04 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a big difference between "the job can't be done safely" and "the way the job was done previously wouldn't be safe if they continue doing it that way". There's literally no step in "picking strawberries" that can't be done while maintaining social distancing. It will increase the cost of labor, and force humans to be treated like... humans. But farming isn't inherently unsafe re: coronavirus.

You say "increase the cost of labor" like it's nothing. Fact is, industries like this couldn't be operated on the up and up in the US- people wouldn't buy the product at the price it'd need to be sold for. I'm not saying this to justify the current conditions, I'm just pointing out that it's this or an eradication of the industry. edit: an eradication I'm totally fine with.

It's a fallacy to say "people wouldn't buy the product because it's too expensive" when the product is food. People kinda have to buy food, no matter what. If every food producer is subject to the same regulations, every food retailer's prices will go up.

Countries tend to protect their agricultural industry from foreign competition fairly effectively, particularly for staples.

Re: Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawberries over Zoom’

#96

Post by burkaman »

jnwatson wrote: post #85
thatcat wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lol, the price of corn, or even oil, coal, and steel are constantly adjusted by gov. You've proven the opposite of your point - market price is political and can be controlled when it is politically favorable.

The government doesn't control the price of corn, oil, coal, or steel except indirectly via government policy.

Subsidies paid directly to farmers are not indirect. The Energy Policy Act (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Policy_Act_of_2005), which sets a mandatory minimum amount of corn that must be made into ethanol, is not indirect.

Re: Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawberries over Zoom’

#97

Post by onlyrealcuzzo »

germinalphrase wrote: post #89
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's pretty sad we passed a $2.2T stimulus bill, with $500Bn in unemployment benefits, so the average person that gets laid off can make about $60k a year (adjusted for taxes) to not work -- and we did hardly nothing to protect people that actually need to work and are at high risk! Worst of all, most of these jobs are low paying -- much less than you'd get from the current unemployment. We basically created…

Can you provide references with regard to your unemployment claims. Here in minnesota you receive about 50 percent of your weekly wages up to a max of $740 a week. That hardly seems like an incentive to get laid off (note that you don’t collect unemployment if you voluntarily leave a job, i.e. quit).

The federal government is pouring $600 per week, federally tax free. So that's closer to $685+ after taxes.

Re: Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawberries over Zoom’

#98

Post by munk-a »

jnwatson wrote: post #85
thatcat wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lol, the price of corn, or even oil, coal, and steel are constantly adjusted by gov. You've proven the opposite of your point - market price is political and can be controlled when it is politically favorable.

The government doesn't control the price of corn, oil, coal, or steel except indirectly via government policy.

For Oil the US has a strategic reserve that they dole out whenever they need to appease the public - you could say this is an indirect effect, but selling it for cheap on the open market to drive the price down is reeeeally close to just directly setting the price.

Re: Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawberries over Zoom’

#99

Post by gridlockd »

grey-area wrote: post #44
anoonmoose wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say "increase the cost of labor" like it's nothing. Fact is, industries like this couldn't be operated on the up and up in the US- people wouldn't buy the product at the price it'd need to be sold for. I'm not saying this to justify the current conditions, I'm just pointing out that it's this or an eradication of the industry. edit: an eradication I'm totally fine with.

What price do you think strawberries would be with better conditions? I think the market would support double the price, there would just be lower sales.

With strawberries, you'd think that the retail market price is already pretty close to the price that yields maximum profits.

However, the wholesale price may be far lower than that, because of oligopsony.

Re: Farmworkers face coronavirus risk: ‘You can’t pick strawberries over Zoom’

#100

Post by mensetmanusman »

earthshot wrote: post #83
mensetmanusman wrote: post #51

Remember, flattening the curve doesn’t necessarily mean that fewer people in total get sick, the area under the curve might be the same, esp. if it becomes like the common cold in terms of evading our immune system. We are just trying to buy time to ramp up production of materials that can reduce the burden on the medical system.

The case fatality rate changes quite dramatically when hospitals are overloaded. Additionally, the fatality rate of _other_ causes increases when hospitals are overloaded. Flatting the curve saves lives even if the total number of infected people remains the same.

The issue I see now is that some areas are locking down when there is no curve to be flattened. This is likely causing more harm than not, because hospitals are sitting empty waiting for when people will inevitably get sick.
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