Planning and Managing Layoffs • Hacker News Board

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#61

Post by sneak » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 7:15 AM UTC

whatever1 wrote: post #57

These posts bring me to the realization that you should never go above and beyond for a company that you don’t own. Just show up, do the bare minimum to meet expectations, finish your 8 hour shift and go home and enjoy quality time with your family. This way when you get laid-off there is nothing to cry for. You can always find an occupation, but you cannot get back the time that you dedicated to fulfill someone else…

It’s just business. You’re selling time and effort for money. No need to make employment more than the simple transaction it is. Approaching it this way also makes it relatively straightforward to set and enforce work/life boundaries as an employee.

Enjoy your time with your family. :)

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#62

Post by freepor » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 7:15 AM UTC

nilkn wrote: post #4

Just ruminating here, but I didn’t fully understand the hesitance to do paycuts. Of course, I understand that in some cases the financial problem is severe enough that layoffs are the only option. But it’s conceivable that in many cases a simple, say, 20% cut to salaries across the board could be enough to tip the balance. Some employees will immediately start looking for another job, but that seems totally fine and…

This method will ensure you lose your top performers rather than your bottom performers.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#63

Post by jakozaur » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 7:16 AM UTC

GCA10 wrote: post #45

Most of this is good advice, but I'd disagree with declaring "Today is your last day." I've been on both sides of the layoff conversation, and usually there are some loose ends relating to work-in-progress that can be tidied up with dignity if everyone has a couple days to do it. We're talking about reworking next week's client meeting, or sorting out some team/project responsibilities that ought to be handed off cle…

In many European countries, a month-long notification is a typical period. Assuming there is trust, the transition may take some time. Reworking presentations, leaving projects in the middle creates extra work. Plus for the individual, this gives time to adapt to the new situation.

However, if you go that route make it specific it is for transition and once person is done it doesn't have to do any new work and just left them to leave earlier.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#64

Post by rexarex » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 7:25 AM UTC

taurath wrote: post #17

A bit of criticism - it “normalizes” an 8 week severance as a ceiling - maybe in the high flying startup world but any big company especially with long tenure 8 weeks is a pittance, especially to someone having been there for 5 years. May be worth a note. > While it can sound jarring to say “and today is your last day,” it’s generally better for people because it makes it clear that there is a new normal and it start…

Agreed, I thought 8 weeks was very low for a lay-off based on what I’ve heard from others.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#65

Post by newswasboring » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 7:30 AM UTC

perceptronas wrote: post #50

toadi wrote: post #41

Seems odd... To be honest I'm from Belgium and like how layoffs are handled in my country. There is a rulebook with actual legislation behind it. I like that because it is easy to know for both parties what the expectations are. Mostly you know exactly your severance pay as there are fixed rules for that in your contract. If there are mass layoffs it will trigger other rules. Can't understand the American Freedom thi…

Expectations are handled when you sign employment contract. You are free to negotiate anything. I live in EU country with similar laws and still employees/employers negotiate additional things which are are not written in the contract (because law forbids it). American freedom - its hard to imagine somebody complaining because the person has more individual choices

The difference is baselines and power dynamics. There are many reasons most people cannot negotiate those things in, some don't have any bargaining power (new graduates, people in industries with excess people, or migrant workers), some are not smart/experienced enough to negotiate stuff (again new graduates) and above all not everyone is a lawyer or knowledgeable about how contract language works (legalese is not certainly not English). Nobody should be devoid of basic human decency because a company with a law firm on retainer can use several tactics that a individual cannot.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#66

Post by cwyers » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 7:31 AM UTC

whatever1 wrote: post #57

These posts bring me to the realization that you should never go above and beyond for a company that you don’t own. Just show up, do the bare minimum to meet expectations, finish your 8 hour shift and go home and enjoy quality time with your family. This way when you get laid-off there is nothing to cry for. You can always find an occupation, but you cannot get back the time that you dedicated to fulfill someone else…

That's true if you don't need recommendations from the people you're working with to get your next job, if you don't want to get promotions (which help you get better jobs down the road!), and if you are content to spend 40 hours a week from now until you retire just coasting through life.

I think a better way to look at it is -- don't be loyal to something that can't be loyal to you. But you can and should let yourself care about the work you're doing and the individuals you're working with. That way, if you do end up leaving when you don't want to, you have accomplishments and a network of people who know what you're capable of. And up until then, you can take pride in what you're doing and feel good about how you're treating the people you're doing it with.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#67

Post by newswasboring » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 7:34 AM UTC

hirako2000 wrote: post #58

perceptronas wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Expectations are handled when you sign employment contract. You are free to negotiate anything. I live in EU country with similar laws and still employees/employers negotiate additional things which are are not written in the contract (because law forbids it). American freedom - its hard to imagine somebody complaining because the person has more individual choices

While I agree in principle and wish more freedom in Europe, actually even more freedom in the US as well, it's in practice that it fails, especially in certain countries, and always in defavor of the workers. When the capital holders manage to unbalance the relationship with the workers, after failing to rebalance it, politics come into play and rules get voted to protect the workers from certain abuse. I wouldn't sa…

> educate themselves and negociate better, but again it doesn't always work in practice.

I can't believe this is even a debate topic. How do you expect an engineer to compete with a lawyer who has studied it for years and has been practicing it for a while.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#68

Post by draw_down » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 7:59 AM UTC

whatever1 wrote: post #57

These posts bring me to the realization that you should never go above and beyond for a company that you don’t own. Just show up, do the bare minimum to meet expectations, finish your 8 hour shift and go home and enjoy quality time with your family. This way when you get laid-off there is nothing to cry for. You can always find an occupation, but you cannot get back the time that you dedicated to fulfill someone else…

That’s right.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#69

Post by californical » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 8:00 AM UTC

jbkiv wrote: post #30

Different point of view: I was a Founder and CEO during the dot com era. The company survived and became successful ($2B revenues today). It may be unpopular, but I will give you a different view, the one from a Founder/CEO. After the dot com crash no VC could figure out the good from the bad in their portfolio companies. I was starting to get conflicting opinions from my board (4 VC’s and me, the Founder). “Become a…

I really appreciate you for sharing your story, thank you. As someone hoping to found a company in the next 5-10 years, this is my nightmare scenario as well. I'm glad it all worked out for everyone in the end, and it sounds like your employees really trusted and cared for you add much as you did them.

I'm only a couple of years into my career, so I knew but never fully understood how bad the dot com (and 08) recessions were. Kinda scary to hear stories like this, then think of my current job at a mid-size startup. I think we have enough cash for a bit, but it seems like things can change so quickly.

It seems like you have a lot of wisdom about situations like this, for better or worse hah.. do you have any advice for a younger dev right now? I already have a lot of savings, but I'm really interested in your opinions about how to reduce the impacts of the impending recession on my career goals, and to come out ahead when it's all over.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#70

Post by 0xy » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 8:05 AM UTC

toadi wrote: post #41

Seems odd... To be honest I'm from Belgium and like how layoffs are handled in my country. There is a rulebook with actual legislation behind it. I like that because it is easy to know for both parties what the expectations are. Mostly you know exactly your severance pay as there are fixed rules for that in your contract. If there are mass layoffs it will trigger other rules. Can't understand the American Freedom thi…

The average wage for software developers in the US is roughly double Belgium. I don't know if you could convince anyone to give up 50% of their pay for I'm guessing 5% or less extra money in severance pay.

I wouldn't. Not even for 10% less.