Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid • Hacker News Board

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#111

Post by vanduh » Mon, Mar 30, 2020, 7:50 PM UTC

hash872 wrote: post #13

What is the end goal for the thieves? Seeing as you obviously can't sell stolen artwork on the open market- how many insanely wealthy private collectors can there be out there, who are willing to risk substantial prison time to own a stolen painting? I think many or most people who have that much money probably made it legally and don't have that kind of risk tolerance. And I doubt many mob boss/Tony Soprano types re…

> how many insanely wealthy private collectors can there be out there, who are willing to risk substantial prison time to own a stolen painting?

Plenty. Think Drug Cartel Bosses. Over half-a-dozen in Mexico, Columbia and Venezuela alone. Nett worth in Billions.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#112

Post by Xelbair » Mon, Mar 30, 2020, 7:55 PM UTC

joncalhoun wrote: post #65

crazygringo wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I've read it's stolen to order. Super rich person really wants that particular painting to hang in a private room where they can enjoy it. And they go through a couple connections for plausible deniability -- buying it from some kind of "dealer" they can "assume" is "legit", and the "dealer" then connects with actual criminals to steal it. If ever caught (unlikely), the thieves and "dealer" take the fall, n…

I don't think plausible deniability works on one-of-a-kind artwork. Even if you assume your dealer is legit, any cursory research will tell you it was stolen. It would be like buying the secret formula for Coca-Cola and claiming you didn't know it was stolen because it went through multiple middlemen.

>Oh, i was sure that i was buying a great reproduction!

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#113

Post by goatlover » Mon, Mar 30, 2020, 7:56 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #43

hash872 wrote: post #13

What is the end goal for the thieves? Seeing as you obviously can't sell stolen artwork on the open market- how many insanely wealthy private collectors can there be out there, who are willing to risk substantial prison time to own a stolen painting? I think many or most people who have that much money probably made it legally and don't have that kind of risk tolerance. And I doubt many mob boss/Tony Soprano types re…

From what I've read it's stolen to order. Super rich person really wants that particular painting to hang in a private room where they can enjoy it. And they go through a couple connections for plausible deniability -- buying it from some kind of "dealer" they can "assume" is "legit", and the "dealer" then connects with actual criminals to steal it. If ever caught (unlikely), the thieves and "dealer" take the fall, n…

So the rich being selfish fucks. They want to own something and deprive the rest of us of that enjoyment.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#114

Post by notahacker » Mon, Mar 30, 2020, 7:57 PM UTC

grey-area wrote: post #38

w-m wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The muted greenish brown colouring, the strange wide aspect ratio, the generally dark tone and setting: if you'd try to sell this to me as a Van Gogh painting, I would have probably laughed at you. I'm far from being an art historian, but it looks quite out of character for a Van Gogh.

One of his most famous paintings matches 2 out of 3 of your criticisms, he only went wild with colour later. I agree the style change can seem abrupt but it happened over years. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Potato_Eaters

You'd think the sort of person that wanted to pay art thieves would be more interested in the prestige of a famous or characteristic work than a relatively obscure naturalistic study of a garden he painted several times. I mean, similarly, anyone interested in studying the history of art sees Picasso's naturalistic family portraits he made as a teenager and his 'blue period' as important in his development as an artist, but it's not the stuff I'd imagine is high on the list of wealthy criminals wishing to flaunt their wealth and power with famous abstract paintings worth millions in their private rooms.

Though I doubt Van Gogh's more famous works were on display at the Singer Laren museum...

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#115

Post by stuff4ben » Mon, Mar 30, 2020, 7:58 PM UTC

dannykwells wrote: post #76

For anyone wanting to have a wonderful 90s flashback featuring the theft of high-end art, you can't do worse during shelter in place than to watch the Thomas Crown Affair: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0155267/

"So if some Houdini wants to snatch a couple swirls of paint that are really only important to some very silly rich people, I don't really give a damn..."

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#116

Post by kyleblarson » Mon, Mar 30, 2020, 8:09 PM UTC

For anyone who has time on their hands and wants a good read, The Goldfinch by Donna Tartt is a wonderful book that tells a story set in the world of art theft.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#117

Post by moftz » Mon, Mar 30, 2020, 8:12 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #83

joncalhoun wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think plausible deniability works on one-of-a-kind artwork. Even if you assume your dealer is legit, any cursory research will tell you it was stolen. It would be like buying the secret formula for Coca-Cola and claiming you didn't know it was stolen because it went through multiple middlemen.

I mean I have no idea what a judge would think. But I'm not sure it's entirely outlandish. The buyer just spins a story to the judge: "the dealer said he could acquire a van Gogh from someone's private collection, I loved its appearance, so I paid them to do that." The buyer could insist the dealer said the painting was unnamed, that they would have had no way of ever knowing it was the same one stolen from a museum,…

If you have enough money to finance an art heist or buy a priceless Van Gogh from a "dealer", you probably have enough money to not go to jail over an art theft. The collector pays a replica price on paper but in reality pays much more to the dealer. If caught, you just say you thought it was a replica, the dealer says they thought it was a replica, their dealer says the same, and so on until no one ends up with any jail time.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#118

Post by warent » Mon, Mar 30, 2020, 8:23 PM UTC

hash872 wrote: post #13

What is the end goal for the thieves? Seeing as you obviously can't sell stolen artwork on the open market- how many insanely wealthy private collectors can there be out there, who are willing to risk substantial prison time to own a stolen painting? I think many or most people who have that much money probably made it legally and don't have that kind of risk tolerance. And I doubt many mob boss/Tony Soprano types re…

Paul McCartney had his original Hofner Bass stolen and wondered the exact same as you.

He had a really funny theory about this that if you visit some German castle way up in the hills of Bavaria, after dinner the host will invite you into a room where his bass is hanging over the mantlepiece. [1]

I'd be willing to bet that in cases like this painting, the thieves were probably hired by a billionaire client. So, the buyer was the one who initiated the heist in the first place.

[1] https://youtu.be/5Pf19jV1NYw?t=849

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#119

Post by elorant » Mon, Mar 30, 2020, 8:25 PM UTC

hash872 wrote: post #13

What is the end goal for the thieves? Seeing as you obviously can't sell stolen artwork on the open market- how many insanely wealthy private collectors can there be out there, who are willing to risk substantial prison time to own a stolen painting? I think many or most people who have that much money probably made it legally and don't have that kind of risk tolerance. And I doubt many mob boss/Tony Soprano types re…

A lot of wealthy collectors who buy prestigious art never exhibit it in public. So anyone could get that thing and place it in a private vault. Other than that, my guess is that whoever stole it already has a client waiting to buy it. We could safely assume that the job is pretty much commissioned.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#120

Post by penagwin » Mon, Mar 30, 2020, 8:28 PM UTC

ISL wrote: post #97

jagger27 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn’t museums and other art holders create their own authenticated market of accurate clones by giving copiers access?

The ethics of such a practice would be dubious at best.

If the original is now public domain and the replica is not advertised as the original, I'm not sure what the ethical issue is?

I do see a financial issue though, cheap clones are CHEAP - and if you want something that can nearly pass as authentic (which I'd argue is a work of art on it's own) you'd be looking at a very narrow market of buyers.

Again, as long as replicas/clones are labeled as such and the original is in the public domain.