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Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

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Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#81

Post by pbhjpbhj »

oneplane wrote: post #48
op03 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europeans have a long track record of looting priceless things. Before it used to be from other countries.

Once upon a time the Europeans even looted an entire continent and murdered many of the people that already lived there, named it America and said it was theirs now and went on to live there. Or was that not what you were after?

Presumably Africans did that with Europe, Asia first? Then Asians/Europeans did that, displacing smaller vanguard populations.

At some point the question of whether people are being displaced probably becomes hard.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#82

Post by ModernMech »

umvi wrote: post #72
ModernMech wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be a placebo effect, but I need the lie in order for it to work. I can't get the same thing by pretending it's real. My brain has to believe it's real.

So you admit you aren't actually enjoying the art itself, but are deriving a high from "witnessing an ancient piece of history" or "beholding the same matter someone famous once touched" or something?

Yeah. I like to think about ancient people and times and I draw a connection between objects and the past. If it was dug out of the ground after existing there for thousands of years I can do that. If the thing was made in a factory from a mold like every other thing in my house, then I have a hard time enjoying it. What's so wrong with that?

I mean, what do you even mean by "enjoying the art itself"? You mean that the photons hitting my retina should have some sort of inherent enjoyment that is not processed by my brain? My brain needs context to derive that pleasure.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#83

Post by crazygringo »

joncalhoun wrote: post #65
crazygringo wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I've read it's stolen to order. Super rich person really wants that particular painting to hang in a private room where they can enjoy it. And they go through a couple connections for plausible deniability -- buying it from some kind of "dealer" they can "assume" is "legit", and the "dealer" then connects with actual criminals to steal it. If ever caught (unlikely), the thieves and "dealer" take the fall, n…

I don't think plausible deniability works on one-of-a-kind artwork. Even if you assume your dealer is legit, any cursory research will tell you it was stolen. It would be like buying the secret formula for Coca-Cola and claiming you didn't know it was stolen because it went through multiple middlemen.

I mean I have no idea what a judge would think.

But I'm not sure it's entirely outlandish. The buyer just spins a story to the judge: "the dealer said he could acquire a van Gogh from someone's private collection, I loved its appearance, so I paid them to do that." The buyer could insist the dealer said the painting was unnamed, that they would have had no way of ever knowing it was the same one stolen from a museum, etc. (That they certainly never bothered to take a photo and upload it to Google Image Search because why would they?)

To complicate things even further, you can even say you assumed it was a different original version. Just Google "multiple versions of van gogh" and you'll see that the artist would make multiple versions of the same painting.

Obviously the buyer in this case does know what going on -- they initiated the whole thing. But as long as there are no records of communication and the dealer has been paid off to take the fall, they can play dumb in front of a judge if it ever came to that. With a good lawyer, they might very well get away with playing the victim.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#84

Post by tstegart »

crazygringo wrote: post #43
hash872 wrote: post #13

What is the end goal for the thieves? Seeing as you obviously can't sell stolen artwork on the open market- how many insanely wealthy private collectors can there be out there, who are willing to risk substantial prison time to own a stolen painting? I think many or most people who have that much money probably made it legally and don't have that kind of risk tolerance. And I doubt many mob boss/Tony Soprano types re…

From what I've read it's stolen to order. Super rich person really wants that particular painting to hang in a private room where they can enjoy it. And they go through a couple connections for plausible deniability -- buying it from some kind of "dealer" they can "assume" is "legit", and the "dealer" then connects with actual criminals to steal it. If ever caught (unlikely), the thieves and "dealer" take the fall, n…

I feel like this is one of those things people imagine happens, but actually never happens. If it did happen, eventually someone would get caught and we'd see evidence of said secret room and the painting would be recovered from a mansion or something. Instead, they're always recovered from warehouses or behind walls to in attics of crooks.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#85

Post by viklove »

tstegart wrote: post #84
crazygringo wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I've read it's stolen to order. Super rich person really wants that particular painting to hang in a private room where they can enjoy it. And they go through a couple connections for plausible deniability -- buying it from some kind of "dealer" they can "assume" is "legit", and the "dealer" then connects with actual criminals to steal it. If ever caught (unlikely), the thieves and "dealer" take the fall, n…

I feel like this is one of those things people imagine happens, but actually never happens. If it did happen, eventually someone would get caught and we'd see evidence of said secret room and the painting would be recovered from a mansion or something. Instead, they're always recovered from warehouses or behind walls to in attics of crooks.

Yeah, after paying off the local officials to frame it that way. A rich person being accused of theft will tank their reputation, and if they spent $250M for the painting, they'll easily spend $10M to cover it up.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#86

Post by frandroid »

black_puppydog wrote: post #75
OrangeMango wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can always claim to have purchased a "professional-quality" reproduction from a "reputable" dealer.

happens all the time that you ask for a replica and the dealer secretly plants a multi million dollar artwork in your bedroom. Seems legit. :D

And you've just decided that the "replica" was so good that you paid stolen-art-on-the-black-market money for it, not "good replica painter" money for it...

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#87

Post by stevehawk »

devindotcom wrote: post #77
hash872 wrote: post #13

What is the end goal for the thieves? Seeing as you obviously can't sell stolen artwork on the open market- how many insanely wealthy private collectors can there be out there, who are willing to risk substantial prison time to own a stolen painting? I think many or most people who have that much money probably made it legally and don't have that kind of risk tolerance. And I doubt many mob boss/Tony Soprano types re…

Interestingly as I understand it part of the point is that by stealing the original you are able to create both better counterfeits and a market for them. Think about it — obviously no one will buy a counterfeit "Starry Night" or whatever if it's hanging in a museum. But if it's stolen, all of a sudden there's the possibility that they can buy the original. Not only that, but the counterfeit, created with extensive a…

The irony in that comment is that one of the Soprano actors is actually an artist (painter) and big art buff and scored big on finding a painting at a dealer that "didn't know what he had"..

https://news.artnet.com/art-world/sopranos-actor-discovers-1...

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#89

Post by FriendlyNormie »

crazygringo wrote: post #43
hash872 wrote: post #13

What is the end goal for the thieves? Seeing as you obviously can't sell stolen artwork on the open market- how many insanely wealthy private collectors can there be out there, who are willing to risk substantial prison time to own a stolen painting? I think many or most people who have that much money probably made it legally and don't have that kind of risk tolerance. And I doubt many mob boss/Tony Soprano types re…

From what I've read it's stolen to order. Super rich person really wants that particular painting to hang in a private room where they can enjoy it. And they go through a couple connections for plausible deniability -- buying it from some kind of "dealer" they can "assume" is "legit", and the "dealer" then connects with actual criminals to steal it. If ever caught (unlikely), the thieves and "dealer" take the fall, n…

The timing of this is interesting. Are they merely taking advantage of most places having a skeleton staff during the pandemic, or is it something worse like the thieves anticipating the museum will be destroyed by starving mobs soon so they’re stealing the things they like the most before it’s too late? Also, could the museum director have allowed it to happen for a price? His reaction seems strange.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#90

Post by SlowRobotAhead »

black_puppydog wrote: post #75
OrangeMango wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can always claim to have purchased a "professional-quality" reproduction from a "reputable" dealer.

happens all the time that you ask for a replica and the dealer secretly plants a multi million dollar artwork in your bedroom. Seems legit. :D

To be fair... if you did steal a one of a kind and needed a buyer, you could sell it as the worlds best replica.
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