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Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

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Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#71

Post by buckminster »

hash872 wrote: post #13

What is the end goal for the thieves? Seeing as you obviously can't sell stolen artwork on the open market- how many insanely wealthy private collectors can there be out there, who are willing to risk substantial prison time to own a stolen painting? I think many or most people who have that much money probably made it legally and don't have that kind of risk tolerance. And I doubt many mob boss/Tony Soprano types re…

It is effectively a kidnapping. The kidnapper gets a ransom. Otherwise known as a reward for “information leading to the return” of the stolen painting.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#72

Post by umvi »

ModernMech wrote: post #64
umvi wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you know it's a fake then it takes away from the mystique. On the other hand, if you can only tell the difference between the real and the fake with a microscope, then "mystique" seems to be a simple placebo effect. It's about time we stopped holding original-yet-mediocre works like the Mona Lisa on such a high pedestal just to create some kind of "mental high" that people are deriving from the placebo effect.

It may be a placebo effect, but I need the lie in order for it to work. I can't get the same thing by pretending it's real. My brain has to believe it's real.

So you admit you aren't actually enjoying the art itself, but are deriving a high from "witnessing an ancient piece of history" or "beholding the same matter someone famous once touched" or something?

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#73

Post by [deleted] »

saas_sam wrote: post #58
sparrc wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't think there are loads of shady rich people in the world, you need to wake up.

There are loads of shady poor people. Those of us in cities see them daily. Makes sense that there would be shady rich people, too.

[deleted]

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#74

Post by [deleted] »

hannob wrote: post #55
mulmen wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently they can be used as collateral between criminals for loans. They can also be used as an insurance policy if the criminal is ever caught. Offer to exchange the art for a lesser sentence. A literal get out of jail free card.

> Offer to exchange the art for a lesser sentence. A literal get out of jail free card. Has that ever happened? I'd assume this would be super controversial.

[deleted]

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#75

Post by black_puppydog »

OrangeMango wrote: post #67
joncalhoun wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think plausible deniability works on one-of-a-kind artwork. Even if you assume your dealer is legit, any cursory research will tell you it was stolen. It would be like buying the secret formula for Coca-Cola and claiming you didn't know it was stolen because it went through multiple middlemen.

You can always claim to have purchased a "professional-quality" reproduction from a "reputable" dealer.

happens all the time that you ask for a replica and the dealer secretly plants a multi million dollar artwork in your bedroom. Seems legit. :D

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#77

Post by devindotcom »

hash872 wrote: post #13

What is the end goal for the thieves? Seeing as you obviously can't sell stolen artwork on the open market- how many insanely wealthy private collectors can there be out there, who are willing to risk substantial prison time to own a stolen painting? I think many or most people who have that much money probably made it legally and don't have that kind of risk tolerance. And I doubt many mob boss/Tony Soprano types re…

Interestingly as I understand it part of the point is that by stealing the original you are able to create both better counterfeits and a market for them.

Think about it — obviously no one will buy a counterfeit "Starry Night" or whatever if it's hanging in a museum. But if it's stolen, all of a sudden there's the possibility that they can buy the original.

Not only that, but the counterfeit, created with extensive access to the original, is likely to be almost indistinguishable from it except by experts.

So the thieves steal the original, make a few copies, sell those for millions saying each is the original, then return the original to the museum. The best part is, the people who bought the counterfeits can't exactly go to the police. It's the perfect crime!

Sound crazy? This is what is speculated to have happened to the Mona Lisa some time ago.

The "Tony Soprano types" are probably more common - and perhaps less savvy - than you might expect. The type of person who thinks one can buy a hot van Gogh for a few million bucks is a pretty ripe target for counterfeiters.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#79

Post by lb1lf »

mulmen wrote: post #29
hash872 wrote: post #13

What is the end goal for the thieves? Seeing as you obviously can't sell stolen artwork on the open market- how many insanely wealthy private collectors can there be out there, who are willing to risk substantial prison time to own a stolen painting? I think many or most people who have that much money probably made it legally and don't have that kind of risk tolerance. And I doubt many mob boss/Tony Soprano types re…

Apparently they can be used as collateral between criminals for loans. They can also be used as an insurance policy if the criminal is ever caught. Offer to exchange the art for a lesser sentence. A literal get out of jail free card.

-A few years ago, months after Norway had witnessed a HEAT-style armed robbery during which a police officer was killed, Edvard Munch’s ‘The Scream’ and ‘Madonna’ were stolen from the National Gallery to divert resources away from the ongoing manhunt after the HEAT robbery.

Didn’t work.

Re: Dutch museum says van Gogh painting stolen in overnight raid

#80

Post by jagger27 »

devindotcom wrote: post #77
hash872 wrote: post #13

What is the end goal for the thieves? Seeing as you obviously can't sell stolen artwork on the open market- how many insanely wealthy private collectors can there be out there, who are willing to risk substantial prison time to own a stolen painting? I think many or most people who have that much money probably made it legally and don't have that kind of risk tolerance. And I doubt many mob boss/Tony Soprano types re…

Interestingly as I understand it part of the point is that by stealing the original you are able to create both better counterfeits and a market for them. Think about it — obviously no one will buy a counterfeit "Starry Night" or whatever if it's hanging in a museum. But if it's stolen, all of a sudden there's the possibility that they can buy the original. Not only that, but the counterfeit, created with extensive a…

Couldn’t museums and other art holders create their own authenticated market of accurate clones by giving copiers access?
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