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Problems with Japan's Covid-19 reports

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Re: Problems with Japan's Covid-19 reports

#151

Post by dirtyid »

viklove wrote: post #106
tensor wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't deal in speculation and rumours sorry. The 2-3% assuming you have medical treatment has held true. The 10+% hospitalization has held true. The lack of response from the US is in no way due to China's reporting, it's due to the US propaganda and incompetence.

> I don't deal in speculation and rumours sorry. But you trust a known liar (the Chinese government)? Sounds like you're a bit biased here. > US propaganda So the US spreads propaganda, but not China? I don't understand how an educated individual could spout this nonsense anywhere. edit: Am I getting downvotes because HN thinks the Chinese government doesn't have a history of lying? Anyone remember Tiananmen Square,…

They both propagandize but people in the west are less trained to identify US propaganda than Chinese propaganda. The reverse is also true in China. Useful idiots everywhere.

> an educated individual

An educated individual =/= a qualified one. There are qualified experts in government with experience managing the US-China relationship. They would not fixate on Chinese statistics in an case like this. What happened in China was not opaque like secret CPC politburo meetings. It was an incredibly, transparently, urgent crisis - the country was locked down, that alone should sound louder than any statistics coming out of China in dealing with a virus we still don't have good understanding of. China's neighbors - all the countries with experiencing managing responses to movements in China, particularly SARS, acted appropriately. The US - who has/had cultivated decades of relationships with China has many back channels to privileged information most countries don't have.

Also instead of fixating on numbers, fixate on indicators on the Chinese response because that's much more useful given where countries are. China is reopenning schools, factory are spinning backup according to expats, the same expats who can comment on the conditions of the quarantine are also attesting that no locals on their team contracted the virus. Look at imported statistics from countries repatriating citizens. Most Chinese imported cases are from returning students from NA and EU. Singaporean, Taiwanese and Canadian data shows similarly, there's virtually no positive tests coming out of China at the moment. Facts on the ground and external numbers comport that ridiculously aggressive Chinese quarantine works. The question should then be, what amount of half measures is sufficient.

Re: Problems with Japan's Covid-19 reports

#152

Post by btilly »

hilbertseries wrote: post #46
standardUser wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" I strongly suspect that Japan is maliciously incompetent and a lot of dead Japanese will be the result." When? Japan has had this coronavirus a lot longer than most places. If we expected the transmission rate to explode, we would have expected it to happen already, and we would be seeing the consequences.

It looks Tokyo is starting to have an out break https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavirus/ct-nw-tokyo-olymp...

The most interesting point in that article is that Japanese citizens and politicians are suspicious of the timing. All numbers looked good until the Olympics were called off. Then Japan started reporting climbing cases and talking about emergency.

I certainly hope that the politicians in Parliament who asked questions got satisfactory answers. I doubt that they did, but there should be time to ask those same questions later when there is a clearer picture.

I just hope it isn't as bad as I fear it will be.

Re: Problems with Japan's Covid-19 reports

#153

Post by rumanator »

hungryhobo wrote: post #148
rumanator wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whatever China says must ALWAYS be a lie, You are talking about the regime that fired the previous official in charge of the chinese government's response to it's covid19 outbreak for aledgedly falsifying information, and afterwards inexplicably decided to officially leave out from their covid19 infection statistics any patient who was confirmed to carry the virus but subjectively wasn't experiencing major symptoms…

Or you are just too deep in your personal bias. Even if you don't trust the numbers at the face value, there are external things you can observe. Provincial movement bans are lifted, factories are returning to work, restaurants are opening again. No government, authoritarian or not, would make that call if the cases are not under control.

> Or you are just too deep in your personal bias.

I could provide citations and sources and support for everything I pointed out.

But I noticed you are posting using an account created recently which is being used to brigade threads all over HN that point out anything less than totally positive involving China's ruling regime.

Re: Problems with Japan's Covid-19 reports

#154

Post by eeeuo »

rfoo wrote: post #142
throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We should either try to understand Try to understand, precisely, what?

Try to understand what happened in China, what is happening and what does all these mean, instead of being dismissive on anything coming out of China, claiming they are lies and propaganda.

It is impossible to trust information that comes out of country that suppresses freedom of the press.

It's a very simple cause-and-effect.

Re: Problems with Japan's Covid-19 reports

#155

Post by dang »

phoenixstrike wrote: post #3

Popular opinion in the US regarding the integrity of various countries' coronavirus reporting is hilarious. Whatever China says must ALWAYS be a lie, on the other hand, the US numbers are not "suppressed," it's just incompetence. Meanwhile, nobody is batting an eye at Japan's ridiculously and obviously doctored numbers. Hey guys, maybe China was just having literally the same organizational problems the US is having…

Please don't take HN threads into nationalistic flamewar. There's substantive material to discuss here, but you've unfortunately poured firestarter over it (e.g. snark and flamey rhetoric). When people do this, the results are predictable and dismal—especially when the material is flammable to begin with. That's why the site guidelines explicitly ask you not to post this way: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

In fact, you should do the opposite: add flame retardant, i.e. use neutral language, narrow the scope of your claims to what the substance supports, edit out grand provocation.

Re: Problems with Japan's Covid-19 reports

#156

Post by dang »

hujun wrote: post #138

now days hacker news is often filled non-tech related discussion, specially anything relate to China or politics; come on guys, this is Hacker news, not political news; if you are so passion about politics, go to some forum dedicate for those things;

This isn't so different from how HN has always been. Many topics have political overlap. That's inevitably the case on a site that's dedicated to intellectual curiosity (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html).

This is a challenge for moderation, but the approach we take has been stable for a long time. I've written about it here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21607844, and there's lots more explanation at https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... for anyone who wants it.

Concerns about HN getting more/too political go back almost as far as the site itself: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17014869. There's no systemic breach, just topical fluctuation.

How we handle major ongoing stories (like this crisis) is mostly by downweighting routine follow-ups, so that just the stories with significant new information get primary coverage: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu.... That's the intention, at least.

Of course there are always exceptions for submissions that have intellectually curious angles, like the detective aspect in the OP here.

Re: Problems with Japan's Covid-19 reports

#157

Post by throwaway_pdp09 »

throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #145
rfoo wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try to understand what happened in China, what is happening and what does all these mean, instead of being dismissive on anything coming out of China, claiming they are lies and propaganda.

> what happened in China covid > what is happening covid > what does all these mean No idea, what does all these mean? > instead of being dismissive I didn't dismiss, I asked. Answer the question. > claiming they are lies and propaganda No, you just said that. I asked a question. Answer the question please, to wit, What am I being asked to understand.

Aww, look at that. You can't answer the question so surprise! the downvotes.

China suppressed covid information because that's it's nature; deny until it can't just deny any more. Now exactly the same, downvotes against something because you just can't answer it- what's Chinese for "the leopard can't change it's spots"?

Re: Problems with Japan's Covid-19 reports

#158

Post by watwut »

eeeuo wrote: post #154
rfoo wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try to understand what happened in China, what is happening and what does all these mean, instead of being dismissive on anything coming out of China, claiming they are lies and propaganda.

It is impossible to trust information that comes out of country that suppresses freedom of the press. It's a very simple cause-and-effect.

It is not like western channels were truthful all the time. Keeping America, compare fox news information with msnbc. No way both are telling truth about cornavirus.

Re: Problems with Japan's Covid-19 reports

#159

Post by hungryhobo »

rumanator wrote: post #153
hungryhobo wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you are just too deep in your personal bias. Even if you don't trust the numbers at the face value, there are external things you can observe. Provincial movement bans are lifted, factories are returning to work, restaurants are opening again. No government, authoritarian or not, would make that call if the cases are not under control.

> Or you are just too deep in your personal bias. I could provide citations and sources and support for everything I pointed out. But I noticed you are posting using an account created recently which is being used to brigade threads all over HN that point out anything less than totally positive involving China's ruling regime.

Citations that point to restaurants opening being faked? Factory opening being faked? Travel ban lifted being faked? Please do.

I'm Chinese, I realize Chinese government's flaws, but I also recognize its merits. I hope you can accept that people with different opinions than you are not just trolls

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