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From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

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Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#571
post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The minimum wage would apply to everyone. Both fast food workers and farm workers. What is your point?

So let’s break it down like this, since apparently HN isn’t smart enough to see the hypocrisy of the situation. Liberals: pay fast food workers $15 an hour! Conservatives: that will dramatically increase food prices and lead to layoffs. Liberals: no it won’t! Fear mongering! Conservatives: let’s stop illegal immigration. Liberals: who’s gonna pick vegetables then??? Conservatives: Americans Liberals: impossible! That…

You seem to be obsessed with minimizing food prices as the end goal of liberals. It is not. This argument is entirely inside your head.

Check Switzerland for a society with high food prices and high minimum wage. This is the kind of society liberals are advocating for.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People should pay more for fruit and food if more money is required to fairly compensate laborers. The solution shouldn't be importing a disadvantaged population to exploit for cheap labor. If our modern economy is so weak we cannot afford fruits and vegetables we should confront and overcome that weakness rather than conceal it by importing an underclass.

So the solution you propose means higher consumer prices (which hurts the lower class the most) and to prevent poor people from other countries the opportunity for a higher quality of life

The solution I propose is to fairly compensate people for their work, give them high quality benefits, and tolerable conditions. I don't think that standard is being met by importing disadvantaged people who will work difficult and demanding jobs in harsh conditions for low pay.

Worse, this policy effectively conceals the problem rather than addressing it. If fruit was too expensive for most people to buy, that would be a problem our society would need to solve. If we can pretend things are working fine by exploiting the poor, we don't have to face or solve that problem for a while.

I also don't believe your summary. It's an easy excuse to pretend that allowing the poor to come slave away in demanding conditions to provide you with low cost goods and services is actually for their benefit. Their original countries are deprived of their economic energy and the poor in the richer countries are forced to compete with a vast influx of workers.

The corollary of higher fruit prices is that the fruit workers get more money, more breaks, better benefits, and improved conditions. That's a worthwhile trade.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#573
post #129
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very naive take on the world. You'll need at the very least half an acre to feed yourself sustainably, and that's if you're highly optimized. It's also backbreaking work, and you won't be able to do much else except subsistence farming. In short, it's not practical for the vast majority of the population. The closest we can probably get to this model is instead CSA memberships, supporting farms right outsid…

I think this is also naive. You don't need an acre, nor is it backbreaking labour. The biggest time sink for home gardeners in my experience is watering, which you can solve by timed drip irrigation. Some plants like beans and peas are so easy to grow that they'll take over if you don't manage them. Potatoes are also pretty robust. However, growing year-round is hard. It's relatively easy to feed yourself over the su…

Well, yes, I was specifically speaking to the self-sustainable part. (And really, growing enough to eat year round? Yeah, it's back breaking. Not when you're 20 or 30, but come back to me when you're in your 50s :)

I'm totally in favor of growing the things that you mention - and combined with a CSA, it's the best of both worlds.

But I really, really, wouldn't want to grow all the staples myself and be dependent on it.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#574
post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for this! Can you recommend some simple concise instructions on growing tomatoes? I’ve explored a little in the past, but always seemed to run into fairly impenetrable instructions. A basic list of what to buy (in non-gardeners’ terminology) and some simple instructions would be great.

I'd be happy to! Tomatoes are super forgiving and are a great place to start. The easiest thing is to pick up a seed packet at a garden supply store. I buy most of mine online or from Stokes. Drying out seeds is fairly easy, but seed packets are less work. For starting seedlings you only need a few simple supplies. Ideally you have very light, "airy", soil. This usually sold as "seed starter" mix. You can make do wit…

Thanks for the additional detail! :)

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#575
post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

which country (except China in Hubei) actually locked down agriculture?

Kazakhstan suspends exports of food staples They are the #10 Global Wheat Exporter [1] https://www.agriculture.com/markets/newswire/update-1-kazakh...

they are still producing though?

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#576
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not a weird comment. The current global mode of production is engineered to ONLY work when there are no global crisises at hand. Guess what: we have a global crisis at hand now. Which means that the neoliberal modus operandi fails without a struggle. It just collapsed overnight. And if you think otherwise, just answer me this: if tourism cedes to exist, what do wild west neoliberal goverments do (with their curre…

Easy - farmers can’t pay more because they would be outcompeted by those who pay less. Race to the bottom which ends predictably bad but which players in the market can’t do anything about short of illegal price fixing or temporary workers unionizing (like that could happen).

It could happen if there was a political will to have a framework for it to happen. There is not any in many countries, so that's that. Well, we will rethink these frameworks in the coming months, I am sure of that.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#577
post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly, it's a shift-by-one kind of situation. I.e. while British or German crops are picked by Poles, Polish crops are picked by Ukrainians... It seems that agriculture everywhere relies on underpaid migrant labor. I wonder if even Ukraine imports some migrant labor for this purpose.

Russia does, from the former Soviet 'Stan republics. I assume Ukraine does as well.

Ukraine does not. Russia is easier to get in and pays more.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Economic conditions have real and immediate health consequences too. For example, in 2010 US unemployment briefly grew about 6% to a total of 10% in the US and there were 40,000 additional deaths from cancer alone[1]. When you consider heart disease, other illness, drug abuse, and suicide, the numbers are much greater. The often cited number of 40k for each percent unemployment may not be far off if these factors are…

Put "COVID-19 deaths" in "can't revive the dead" category, and put "helping people not feel suicidal" in "maybe possible to change" category. Your first link about cancer deaths and unemployment states " Access to health care could underlie these associations ", that can go in "maybe possible to affect". "Budgetary constraints on centralized healthcare" - the UK NHS has just had 750,000 volunteers sign up to help out…

First off, I wanted to say thanks for the thoughtful response. Second, I wanted to clarify my position in light of your last line.

>And even, even, if you don't like being alive in a poorer world, and wish you had died of COVID-19 instead, you can still suicide then, it isn't either-or. But you can't go the other way, regret dying of COVID-19 and then choose to try the alternative problems instead.

I am in no way concerned about the outcome for myself of my immediate family. We are extremely low risk, have secure income, and savings in cash. I fully expect we will come out of this event better than we went in. In fact, the harder the crash, the better off we will likely be. That said, there are billions (literally) of people on this planet which were struggling and often failing to meet their basic health and nutritional needs. We should be mind be mindful of how our response will impact them.

On to the rest of your comments, I see two main points. please let me know if I misstated them.

1) Covid deaths today are irreversible, future deaths can be mitigated

I agree with this in principle, but in practice I am much more pessimistic that societies will mitigate the 2nd order effects of our response. People are notably bad at balancing highly visible costs today, with less visible and costs in the future. Societies could have come together with radical mitigations to reduce deaths from the 2009 global recession or any of the famines in recent decades[1], but they didn't because they were far away and not obvious.

If I were to summarize my main point, it is that we need to have the right stakeholders considering the long and short term perspective crafting our response to this pandemic, and economic considerations are a valid part of minimizing the overall death toll. Doctors have moral obligation to look out for the best interests of their patients and do not take economic considerations into account, nor should they. We don't want them to decide if the cost of a cancer medication could be better spent feeding the poor, but that doesn't mean the tradeoff doesn't exist.

When deciding how to manage this epidemic, doctors, economists, actuaries, and politicians all need to be involved in crafting the response. In order to minimize the death toll, you need to make accurate predictions of outcome and human behavior. Over-optimism or over-pessimism will lead to more deaths.

2) Existing food waste can be repurposed to feed the poor.

I wholeheartedly agree that food scarcity issues are still going to be about resource distribution and logistics. There will not be widespread famine in the US or UK, but there could be in poor food importing countries sub-Saharan Africa or parts of Asia. Plants will grow and food will be still produced in other countries, but if their economies tank, they will not have the money to buy it.

3) Solving these problems later is easier than raising the dead.

It all depends on how likely you think the solutions are and the death toll for each. If you risk 2 people tomorrow to save 1 more today, your solutions needs to be 50-50 to break even. There is obviously a point where this tradeoff results in more lost lives unless you believe you must always act to save every person you can today.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#579

It may seem a little overly paranoid, but I went to the store a couple of days ago and bought enough new fishing line to re-spool all of my reels (which have sat mostly untouched for nearly 20 years, as I'd drifted away from fishing for fun), and some new lures, bobbers, etc. And tomorrow I think I'm going to go out and do a little fishing, just to make sure I still remember how, and to make sure my gear all still wo…

Except ALOT of people fish for fun. Most lakes are stocked, and as soon as food becomes a shortage i'm pretty sure lakes will stop being stocked.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#580

It may seem a little overly paranoid, but I went to the store a couple of days ago and bought enough new fishing line to re-spool all of my reels (which have sat mostly untouched for nearly 20 years, as I'd drifted away from fishing for fun), and some new lures, bobbers, etc. And tomorrow I think I'm going to go out and do a little fishing, just to make sure I still remember how, and to make sure my gear all still wo…

Except ALOT of people fish for fun. Most lakes are stocked, and as soon as food becomes a shortage i'm pretty sure lakes will stop being stocked.

Yep. I'm not saying one could support oneself through nothing but fishing (depending on a lot of details, of course). But I see no reason not to make that one component of a strategy for procuring food. And even if it only serves for a limited period of time (until your local fishing hole is all fished out), that may be enough time to bridge to the point where other options become available.

I think that ideally, one would use a combination of fishing, trapping, hunting, foraging for wild edibles, gardening, plus buying whatever food remains available for sale, to handle a shortage situation. Perhaps no one of those mechanisms is sufficient by itself, but the combination may be.

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