From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages • Hacker News Board

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#551

Post by andarleen » Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 2:02 PM UTC

kmlx wrote: post #509

andarleen wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont think we should - COVID does. People are forced to stay in their own countries due to travel restrictions. And it is likely this pandemic will last for a while, and with summer coming, people might just as well work locally until this nightmare is over.

how can they work locally when they're not allowed to exit their flats? also the fear of gettting C19 in EE is much greater than in Western Europe. I think EE population will be the last one actually going outside. and there were reports of people saying they will never go out again like before.

I am not sure if the fear is greater - the fear is ending up in public hospitals in some of those countries, but people are pretty static and cities / homes not as crowded as in WE and as such more difficult to spread the virus.

But re workers, restrictions of leaving ones home only apply to non essential work.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#552

Post by MiroF » Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 2:24 PM UTC

joejerryronnie wrote: post #495

MiroF wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The evidence is not nearly as clearcut as you suggest and periods of economic decline are actually associated with lowered mortality rates.

Past periods of economic decline have very different root causes than our current scenario. I don't think this is an apples to apples comparison.

Yes, and consistently despite varied causes of economic decline, it has led to decreased mortality.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#553

Post by fierarul » Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 2:56 PM UTC

dirtyid wrote: post #261

Scoundreller wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, with everyone being at home, and a lot of bullshit tasks being eliminated/deferred (my driver's license is automatically good for an extra 6 months), caloric demand is probably down 10%. As our muscles atrophy, basal metabolic rates will decrease too. Undetermined what kind of hit to population COVID will cause, but I'm estimating <1%.

Ironically, for countries that can contain properly, maybe even net gain in life. HK doctors was talking about how flu season ended months early due to all the measures being taken. I'm guessing road fatalities, work place accidents and all sorts of other causes of death is way down.

The prolonged stress is probably shortening some people's lives. Not sure this is a net positive even if we just count in life-years gained.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#554

Post by fierarul » Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 2:59 PM UTC

s1artibartfast wrote: post #547

neilwilson wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With 3 million people in the UK still without work that want it - and many more laid off, redundant or self-employed without clients, the solution should be obvious. Pay a decent wage and you'll get the people. The era of cheap labour is over.

> Pay a decent wage and you'll get the people. The era of cheap labour is over. or maybe some labor intensive fruits and veggies will no longer be economically viable.

They will become a delicacy.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#555

Post by lotsofpulp » Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 3:04 PM UTC

s1artibartfast wrote: post #550

lotsofpulp wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the wholesalers want the product to sell it, then they will change the price so that it makes sense to harvest it.

If this price is too high, the wholesalers will not be able to sell it and choose not to buy it

Then that would indicate there is no market clearing price for the product so farmers will stop producing it. I.e. people can't afford it anymore.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#556

Post by fierarul » Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 3:22 PM UTC

DFHippie wrote: post #419

jholman wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that probably that would make you and your countryfolk worse off. To try to illustrate, I'll switch the analogy to my own country, which is Canada, where we fly in Mexican labour to pick crops. If we didn't fly in migrant labour, we'd have to pay Canadians, who are generally a spoiled, lazy, picky bunch (at least compared to the sort of Mexicans who fly here to work, who obviously are not lazy nor excessively…

I worked one summer doing migrant labor in agriculture harvesting blueberries in Maine. I migrated with my sister from elsewhere in the US. We were doing it because we wanted money and we were curious about the experience. Alongside us were poor people from Maine -- Native Americans and poor European Americans -- and migrant laborers from south of the border. There was a solidarity among all the groups, and strangely…

> https://web.mit.edu/2.75/resources/random/How%20Complex%20Sy...

> 11) Actions at the sharp end resolve all ambiguity. Organizations are ambiguous, often intentionally, about the relationship between production targets, efficient use of resources, economy and costs of operations, and acceptable risks of low and high consequence accidents. All ambiguity is resolved by actions of practitioners at the sharp end of the system. After an accident, practitioner actions may be regarded as ‘errors’ or ‘violations’ but these evaluations are heavily biased by hindsight and ignore the other driving forces, especially production pressure.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#557

Post by Sawamara » Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 3:40 PM UTC

carapace wrote: post #230

Sawamara wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not a weird comment. The current global mode of production is engineered to ONLY work when there are no global crisises at hand. Guess what: we have a global crisis at hand now. Which means that the neoliberal modus operandi fails without a struggle. It just collapsed overnight. And if you think otherwise, just answer me this: if tourism cedes to exist, what do wild west neoliberal goverments do (with their curre…

s/cedes/ceases/ (I don't mean to criticize, I've been noticing a lot of malapropisms recently. Auto-incorrect I imagine.)

Thanks, I was actually pausing a bit to check that word (in my head, at least), and concluded that I have no idea how it should be written :D Ceases indeed makes more sense!

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#558

Post by beerandt » Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 4:12 PM UTC

6510 wrote: post #471

beerandt wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That logic is good when the farm is next door and you can pay cash $ for a bushel of feed grade corn or whatever. But it starts to fall short when you're still relying on the normal supply chain to get food in a city center. Desperate and hungry people will be resourceful, but it likely won't be as simple as a lower grade of corn in the produce section of the grocery store.

Stores try new products all the time. If people want 100 kinds of breakfast cereal the store will figure it out by trial and error. Failing to do so would take a huge number of people whose job description is to do exactly that. If one tries something new that works the rest is sure to follow. They are puzzling all the time, how much eggs to buy? how much potatoes? how much this? how much that? They never get it exac…

I don't disagree, but see it as a different problem.

I'm presuming regulations wouldn't be updated/waived quickly enough (for feed grade produce, etc), which is part of why famines of this level come to be in the first place.

It's not that stores wouldn't buy it or be willing to sell it, but that companies are much less likely to go against regulations than an individual, even in times of distress.

And to get to grocery store shelves, a product has to go through the hands of multiple companies, depending on level of refinement. But probably at least a producer, a wholesaler/packing house, a distributer, and at least three transport companies. All of which would need to be willing to take the risk of breaking regulations. Which is normally a good thing, since it keeps our food supply chain safe.

It's part of why EPA/USDA/FDA/etc regulations focus on what companies are allowed to grow or manufacture or sell, instead of what consumers are allowed to buy.

So what you're describing is true, but if we're talking about normally illegal-to-sell-food, depends on many people deciding to flout regulations.

This is all in addition to any rationing or other emergency rules that might be put in place (like attempts at government controlled distribution, ala Venezuela)

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#559

Post by carapace » Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 4:20 PM UTC

koheripbal wrote: post #534

carapace wrote: post #225

Plant your Victory Garden now. (You should have a garden anyway or you're just not living the good life, eh?) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victory_garden One packet each of your favorite veggies: $10-$30. The next three months of spring & summer: priceless. If you live in an apartment or condo fill your windows with plants using little planter boxes and whatnot. Every bit helps.

It takes a full acre of land to feed a single person.

I'll grant you that for the sake of discussion (although I don't think it's strictly true), but that acre doesn't have to be all in one place eh? Every bit helps.

My sister's neighbor farmed in his (San Francisco) backyard and got about 3~4 crops a year, all year round. It wasn't enough to feed their whole family but it helped.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#560

Post by 6510 » Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 4:25 PM UTC

nine_k wrote: post #497

6510 wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was true and tested before IT.

If "before IT" is something like 1960, them, well, the world population was 3B. Also check the levels of deaths from starvation and from infectious diseases, and the cost of food. No, moving the right "papers" with high speed has made a serious difference.

I was intentionally vague. People seem to read some opinion in it? (given the up and down voting) I have no idea what it means, its just an interesting fact. All I know is that doing it without moving paper was much harder before computers. I didn't mean to say: Because lobsters couldn't do it neither can we. Nor: We have computers now, everything is easy! IT just dramatically changes the puzzle. Not sure we should try history based prediction.