From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages • Hacker News Board

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#301

Post by m0zg » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 9:47 PM UTC

Daishiman wrote: post #259

m0zg wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hopefully, some level of amnisty and clean slate is driven In the absence of the actual border and viable border enforcement a proper border would enable, that will only make the problem 10x worse, as a significant chunk of Mexico will try to go North in hopes of another "amnesty" in the future.

The total number of immigrants to the US has dropped dramatically as living conditions in Mexico have improved over time. This keeps getting repeated but does not agree with evidence.

> total number of [illegal aliens] to the US has dropped

Given that the US government was prevented from _counting_ them in the 2020 census, I doubt this very much. As an immigrant myself, I also took the liberty of replacing "immigrants" with "illegal aliens" in the quote above, to be more precise.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#302

Post by iamthirsty » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 9:49 PM UTC

syntaxing wrote: post #297

baybal2 wrote: post #68

Coworkers in Shenzhen are already saying that more fancier foods are already getting scarcer in the inland China, and prices are going up by day. China has done a massive livestock slaughter campaign when the quarantine was declared. That has actually depressed the food prices quite a bit for the first months, but after that, the prices have shot up. This is how they got that much meat: https://mustsharenews.com/wp-c…

I remember learning that there is not a single famine in history that's not "wo/man-made" even including the little ice age period. In the sense, the resources and material to grow food was always there. It was always either a logistical, economical, or political issue that creates famine. Not sure how true this is since our world population has increased significantly.

> It was always either a logistical, economical, or political issue that creates famine.

Absolutely not true. Weather/environmental issues have created many famines throughout history.

Just an example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Without_a_Summer

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#303

Post by MetalGuru » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 9:49 PM UTC

jekro9n wrote: post #274

Daishiman wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost of picking fruit such that it being affordable is not coherent with the cost of living of Britain. Such is the case in a lot of places in the first world. You can keep having affordable fresh fruit, or you can pretend you can pay laborers local prices, driving up the price dramatically, reducing the total size of the market (because nobody's going to be able to afford the new prices), and having even less pr…

Cost in financial terms is an emotional mechanic that the species can no longer validate. I imagine the younger generation with internet will begin to do exactly that as they read about contemporary politics where ministers of finance dictate what we’re allowed to put agency into for the emotional stability of elderly investors in that emotional model Lazy westerners can have fresh fruit: start digging. We’re outnumb…

What are you even trying to say here? So many words for so little coherent meaning.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#304

Post by dodobirdlord » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 9:52 PM UTC

cma wrote: post #249

banmeagaindan2 wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hello Slow Ban my old friend. For growth technology firms that is true - I remember his debate with Eric Schmidt - he was really arguing being a technology firm should be a temporary award contingent on how the firm behaves instead of a title. Technologies mature into infrastructure and stop being thought of as technologies. This is part of his thesis that technology companies should be monopoly companies - and that…

It could be hard for Google to weather a downturn without cash reserves. Ad revenue could dry up substantially.

It would have to be quite a downturn to be a real threat. They would have to have revenue drop by more than their large profit margin and their access to debt markets.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#305

Post by loopbit » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 9:54 PM UTC

microtonal wrote: post #177

the8472 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on the greenhouses I could identify on google maps spain's part seems much larger. Netherlands - https://www.google.com/maps/@52.021357,4.5405597,46292m/data... Spain - https://www.google.com/maps/@36.7995257,-2.4654344,60237m/da...

I am not sure about fresh food, but The Netherlands is world's second largest agricultural exporter (and no, it's not only flowers): https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2017/09/holland-... Also, it's not only about size, also efficiency. Scroll down the article and look at the insane yields per square mile for tomatoes, chilies + green peppers, and cucumbers. No other country comes even close.

The Netherlands are the biggest re-exporter of fruits and vegs. In terms of both quantity and value, they are behind Spain:

https://www.freshplaza.com/article/2135083/netherlands-world...

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#306

Post by PeterisP » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 9:55 PM UTC

usrusr wrote: post #20

411111111111111 wrote: post #8

Nobody forced the farmers to become reliant on migrant workers though. It was just a simple decision for them: cheap labor that's available today or expensive labor... They mostly went with cheap, and now they don't have anyone available. Tough luck I guess, but it always was just a question of time until this happened.

You make it sound as if the farmers were the only ones affected if they fail to get in their harvest.

Products which require a lot of manual effort to harvest are generally luxury goods, not essential for feeding the population.

If for whatever reason it seems that this year there's not going to be enough migrant labor to harvest your strawberries, then when the spring comes you can plow that field over and plant potatoes, which will require much, much less labor and feed more people from the same field.

This year is very much not 'business as usual' both in production and also in consumption. Just as most other fields, farming needs to adapt to the changing situation; IMHO it's counterproductive to invest a lot of resources to try and preserve the status quo - we're going to see that some farm products become harder to grow, or harder to transport, or are more difficult for people to afford because of economic problems. It does not mean that we should heroically strive to preserve our ability eat as before, if that means that we're going to be eating less of product like that - less fresh food year round (greenhouses or imported), less meat, less fruit, etc, than that should be accepted, and it's okay; and it's okay if the circumstances force the farmers to switch from high-value labor intensive foods back to cheap, efficient staple crops.

A prime example is the scenes I've seen from Netherlands sizeable flower plantations; as flower purchasing in most of their export markets is way down, a lot of the harvest is just discarded. I'm certain that some of that field/greenhouse capacity will be repurposed for basic food growing instead.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#307

Post by asien » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 9:56 PM UTC

MrKitai wrote: post #14

This is false, at least in Spain. Farms are working normally except that they increased prices a bit. But that's normal due to the situation.

Where did you get that info ?

The news in France reported strictly the same situation.

Polish Worker ( which are majority in field work in rural area ) are sent home due to quarantaine, thus there is not enough workforce to harvest fruits and vegetables. More than half of the production of small farmer is at risk of being lost , and theirs salary with it.

Societies are at risk of much bigger collapse.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#308

Post by ReptileMan » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 9:57 PM UTC

microtonal wrote: post #177

the8472 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on the greenhouses I could identify on google maps spain's part seems much larger. Netherlands - https://www.google.com/maps/@52.021357,4.5405597,46292m/data... Spain - https://www.google.com/maps/@36.7995257,-2.4654344,60237m/da...

I am not sure about fresh food, but The Netherlands is world's second largest agricultural exporter (and no, it's not only flowers): https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2017/09/holland-... Also, it's not only about size, also efficiency. Scroll down the article and look at the insane yields per square mile for tomatoes, chilies + green peppers, and cucumbers. No other country comes even close.

Not sure if blind test can determine whether you are eating Netherlands' tomato or styrofoam.

The only good tomatoes from these parts of the world I have tasted were cherry ones. Not sure whether it is cultivar, climate, agricultural practice or terroir. But they taste nothing like real tomatoes.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#309

Post by jagger27 » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 9:58 PM UTC

Got a butternut squash in your pantry? Maybe a couple of tomatoes? Cook it up for dinner and save some seeds! Wash off the pulp and dry them out on a paper towel. It's not too late to start some seedlings, and it's a nice way to pass the time. I've also been experimenting with different dried beans that we stocked up on, and most of them have a pretty high germination rate. Roma beans are super tasty and high in protein, though you need a lot of space to get a good amount of them. Lentils are super easy to sprout too.

Another great tip is that once you have a good sized tomato plant, it's super super easy to clone it. You just have to take a cutting at a node and let the stem soak in water. Rooting hormone helps speed it up, but it's possible to do it without. I've cloned about a dozen plants from a single tomato I accidentally started early. Needless to say I'm running out of window sills to stick them as it's still too cold to transplant them.

Frankly I saw this coming in January and started hundreds of seedlings of different tomatoes, hot peppers, squash, pumpkins, cucumber, zucchini, lettuce, and chard to share with my neighbours.

I'm a bit of a gardening nerd and had a big collection of unused seeds from prior seasons, but you'd be amazed at what you can grow that's already in your pantry or fridge. Potatoes are easy to get started but can be a little finicky with soil conditions.

I'm thinking I'll have quite a bit of time to spend in the garden in the coming months. Hopefully I can make a small difference in my community.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#310

Post by ALittleLight » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 9:58 PM UTC

occamrazor wrote: post #272

ALittleLight wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People should pay more for fruit and food if more money is required to fairly compensate laborers. The solution shouldn't be importing a disadvantaged population to exploit for cheap labor. If our modern economy is so weak we cannot afford fruits and vegetables we should confront and overcome that weakness rather than conceal it by importing an underclass.

Another solution is increasing the susidies to food production, which would shift part of the cost to people with higher income. This has some disadvantages (the market is distorted by subsidies and resource allocation may be suboptimal) and some advantages (a healthier diet is available for a larger proportion of the population).

I agree that there are many potential solutions and I think society should figure out a good combination. Importing people to do hard work for low pay and poor benefits seems like a bad solution.