From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages • Hacker News Board

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#61

Post by ilaksh » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 5:41 PM UTC

Zenst wrote: post #10

toomuchtodo wrote: post #3

Tangentially related, NPR aired an interview the other day with undocumented migrant workers (in the US) living very close together when traveling (sleeping sitting up together in a van) and having very limited access to water for bathing and hygiene when lodging at farms where they were working picking produce; it's likely this causes grave loss of life in the migrant community, and decimates produce farms economica…

Undocumented migrants have for all effect become the modern day equivalent of slavery without the associated compasion. Many happy to lambast such people and yet, be first to complain if their avocados go up in price or out of stock. Hopefully, some level of amnisty and clean slate is driven here as currently without that, will only shoot themselves in the foot on many levels. After all, many live day by day, kinda h…

That has been an issue from the beginning and has a long history of success, failure, etc. See Cesar Chavez etc.

The endgame is for those jobs to be automated also.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#62

Post by Noumenon72 » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 5:42 PM UTC

dheera wrote: post #22

To get past the paywall, paste this into the console: document.body.dataset.paywallOverlayStatus="hide";document.querySelector("#graphics-paywall-overlay").remove(); I think it is unethical to put information regarding an epidemic behind a paywall.

We want information about the pandemic, don't we? If we do not pay for it, all we will get is what people figure out in their spare time while confined to their homes. Without paywalls, we would just have Kickstarters like "If everyone who wants to know whether farmers are able to produce fresh fruit gives me $5, I will go and ask them!"

You can always get the information by word of mouth or waiting. The amount you're not willing to do that is the amount you should pay to see it now. (I don't pay and just read the reaction in the comments for free.)

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#63

Post by dragonwriter » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 5:43 PM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #51

411111111111111 wrote: post #8

Nobody forced the farmers to become reliant on migrant workers though. It was just a simple decision for them: cheap labor that's available today or expensive labor... They mostly went with cheap, and now they don't have anyone available. Tough luck I guess, but it always was just a question of time until this happened.

Some years ago, I saw a comedian mock the idea that immigrants were a threat to American jobs by joking that he had always wanted to be an underpaid farm laborer and can't make that dream work because the illegal immigrants took all those jobs. In America, it used to be common for young men in high school and college to do construction work during the summer. Now, it's mostly immigrants. When I was still a military w…

> In America, it used to be common for young men in high school and college to do construction work during the summer. Now, it's mostly immigrants.

Because college or college-bound adults are, if they are motivated enough to work in the first place, mostly focussed on work that provides a competitive advantage in college admissions and post-college careers, which trade labor mostly isn't.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#64

Post by gls2ro » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 5:44 PM UTC

411111111111111 wrote: post #8

Nobody forced the farmers to become reliant on migrant workers though. It was just a simple decision for them: cheap labor that's available today or expensive labor... They mostly went with cheap, and now they don't have anyone available. Tough luck I guess, but it always was just a question of time until this happened.

We are in a time of crisis and the first instinct is to close ourselves but I think we should not throw away what the “free”(almost in some cases) movement of people made possible:

Cheap good food => more people can afford to buy it => less hunger/suffering in the world.

Here is another example:

Cheap technology => more people have access to computers => more innovations are possible => more cheap technology => better life quality.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#65

Post by klenwell » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 5:45 PM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #13

toomuchtodo wrote: post #3

Tangentially related, NPR aired an interview the other day with undocumented migrant workers (in the US) living very close together when traveling (sleeping sitting up together in a van) and having very limited access to water for bathing and hygiene when lodging at farms where they were working picking produce; it's likely this causes grave loss of life in the migrant community, and decimates produce farms economica…

I'm guessing they have little contact with other groups, so they're probably fine until the virus gets in there, and then it goes very bad very quickly. Disclaimer: I don't have any relevant expertise, and comment on forums because I'm bored in virus lockdown...

> Disclaimer: I don't have any relevant expertise, and comment on forums because I'm bored in virus lockdown...

Lol. This should be a Surgeon General warning required to be attached to every online comment. To wit:

SURGEON GENERAL'S WARNING: The overwhelming majority of users making online comments likely do not have any relevant expertise and comment on forums because they derive personal satisfaction from commenting on forums.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#66

Post by random314 » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 5:46 PM UTC

xienze wrote: post #57

peterwoerner wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, the market does. Most people won't pay an 50% on food because the farmers pay a living wage.

> I mean, the market does. Most people won't pay an 50% on food because the farmers pay a living wage. I always get a chuckle hearing this talk from the sort of people pushing for $15/hr fast food wages.

Why do you get a chuckle? Can you explain?

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#67

Post by dragonwriter » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 5:46 PM UTC

jonnypotty wrote: post #53

411111111111111 wrote: post #8

Nobody forced the farmers to become reliant on migrant workers though. It was just a simple decision for them: cheap labor that's available today or expensive labor... They mostly went with cheap, and now they don't have anyone available. Tough luck I guess, but it always was just a question of time until this happened.

Farmers generally aren't the ones getting rich though are they? I think that says a lot.

> Farmers generally aren't the ones getting rich though are they?

Yes.

I mean, not the decreasingly relevant to reality American mythical archetype (always invoked in political context as if it were the mainstay of American Life) of the independent yeoman farmer class, but the actual corporate agribusiness industry which has long displaced it in owning and operating farmland.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#68

Post by baybal2 » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 5:47 PM UTC

Coworkers in Shenzhen are already saying that more fancier foods are already getting scarcer in the inland China, and prices are going up by day.

China has done a massive livestock slaughter campaign when the quarantine was declared. That has actually depressed the food prices quite a bit for the first months, but after that, the prices have shot up. This is how they got that much meat: https://mustsharenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Wuhan-R...

The scariest part of it is that China relies ENORMOUSLY on the imported food, despite accounting for more than 20% of global food production.

The government has expected to shut everything down, including food production, and weather the crisis by relying on the remaining food in the supply chain. China has spent a big portion of its national food reserve too: https://pbs.twimg.com/ext_tw_video_thumb/1220714156753653760...

They planned to restock quickly with overseas imports after the lockdown was to be lifted. Now that overseas supply is a big question mark...

I heard the same is going in much of the world. Agricultural business is facing shutdown, and they are cashing out their livestock, seedstock, and trying to get an early harvest done before the lockdowns hit their countries.

And people were saying that we will never see a famine in Asia in the 21st century. That optimism was premature...

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#69

Post by DoreenMichele » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 5:48 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #63

DoreenMichele wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some years ago, I saw a comedian mock the idea that immigrants were a threat to American jobs by joking that he had always wanted to be an underpaid farm laborer and can't make that dream work because the illegal immigrants took all those jobs. In America, it used to be common for young men in high school and college to do construction work during the summer. Now, it's mostly immigrants. When I was still a military w…

> In America, it used to be common for young men in high school and college to do construction work during the summer. Now, it's mostly immigrants. Because college or college-bound adults are, if they are motivated enough to work in the first place, mostly focussed on work that provides a competitive advantage in college admissions and post-college careers, which trade labor mostly isn't.

And because young people are less physically fit than they used to be, so they don't have the muscle and stamina required by such jobs.

But the reasons why are almost irrelevant. The pertinent detail is that employers can't fill these jobs without immigrant labor. Most Americans don't want them at any pay rate.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#70

Post by Klinky » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 5:49 PM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #44

groby_b wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very naive take on the world. You'll need at the very least half an acre to feed yourself sustainably, and that's if you're highly optimized. It's also backbreaking work, and you won't be able to do much else except subsistence farming. In short, it's not practical for the vast majority of the population. The closest we can probably get to this model is instead CSA memberships, supporting farms right outsid…

Here's an idea, put everyone's half acres together, then use automation to reduce the labour needed, freeing people to do other useful work! We can share the food, and share the labour! This will work as long as some malevolent dick doesn't come along and decide they want more than their fair share ...

It'll be a common area people can share. We'll just need to avoid any sort of tragedy.