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Why Don’t We Use Chemical Weapons Anymore?

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Re: Why Don’t We Use Chemical Weapons Anymore?

#161
post #9

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks, Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge, Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs And towards our distant rest began to trudge. Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind; Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind. Gas! Gas! Quick, boys!—An ec…

I remember reading this before, but don't recall the author... Who was it? Regarding the article: it seems to miss the obvious points, and sounds almost sociopathic in its use of literary lyricism to suggest that chemical weapons should be regarded as a viable weapon, if only it weren't for the military weaknesses it produces. > the narrative I got was fairly clear: we didn’t use chemical weapons because after World…

> I recall being told why modern military don't use high calibre rifles anymore (303 or 762): because a lower calibre tends to wound the enemy, which means that 2 or more enemy soldiers are needed to help their comrade out

This is a retroactive justification, and it was never an official one - boot camp stories, more or less.

All it takes to disprove it is to look at the history of M16, since that was the platform that introduced the first small-impulse infantry rifle cartridge, 5.56mm. It was originally developed as the outcome of Project SALVO research, which concluded that two close hits with a small-caliber round are significantly deadlier than a single hit with a (then-standard) large rifle round - and therefore the new weapon should be capable of controlled, accurate burst fire. Then, early M16 tests showed that even a single 5.56 bullet would routinely do more damage than then-standard 7.62 NATO ball ammo, because it would fragment due to higher velocities, producing massive tearing - the early reports are practically gushing about this. In comparison, 7.62 ball, and similar WW2-era rounds, would just produce a straight, narrow wound channel.

The other aspect is logistics. You can make fragmenting 7.62 ammo, after all, and it's deadlier still. But lighter ammo means that soldiers can carry a lot more. And most shots are fired in modern warfare for suppression purposes; all else being equal, the side that can suppress its opponents for longer - and thus outmaneuver them - wins. Thus, more lethal but heavier ammo comes with a considerable overhead.

Re: Why Don’t We Use Chemical Weapons Anymore?

#162
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USA is not a signatory to that Hague convention. I don't know what the effect would be of USA participation in a NATO action using expanding small arms ammunition.

yeah I am certainly not an expert and I don’t know why the us military hasn’t used them, but they haven’t, and still aren’t going to from what I can read. I found that rabbit hole while researching hunting ammo, not because I am a military scholar or anything. Seems kinda odd to me anyway, though I suppose limiting the damage a combatant receives while fighting isn’t a bad thing. Coming up with a stance makes you hav…

The US military has authorized the use of hollow point rounds as needed. They just don't believe that it's necessary most of the time in combat. Which is entirely correct - modern FMJ rifle ammo achieves similar and better terminal ballistics via fragmentation, without sacrificing armor penetration or flight ballistics like hollowpoints. But for 9mm, the equation is different - hence why M1153 is a thing, and is issued broadly to military units.

Re: Why Don’t We Use Chemical Weapons Anymore?

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

regarding 2), it's my understanding that hollow point is not very effective against targets wearing armor, and also that they are indeed prohibited outside of situations where overpenetration of structures is a concern. seems to fit the pattern.

> it's my understanding that hollow point is not very effective against targets wearing armor While that's true, the hollow point doesn't make a difference. Essentially all pistol ammo is bad at penetrating armor. What does make a (small) difference is velocity; you can see this by looking at ratings for NIJ level IIa and IIIa armor. This is why pistol ammo that's designed to penetrate soft armor like 5.7mm is so sma…

Lehigh makes lightweight and faster-than-usual 9mm ammo that can punch through IIIa, as well, without sacrificing terminal ballistics. The only problem is that it's expensive ( comparable to match rifle ammo), because the bullets have to be individually precision-machined to produce the necessary shape.

Re: Why Don’t We Use Chemical Weapons Anymore?

#164

Very interesting. I wrote a paper in college that argued a very similar line of reasoning. I based this largely around the conversation that was had about aerial bombing during the inter-war period. During WWI a biplane or two was able to fly over Paris and drop a grenade. It caused quite a scandal with some Navy high ups condemning the concept of aerial bombardment altogether. By the end of the inter-war period ther…

> During WWI a biplane or two was able to fly over Paris and drop a grenade. It caused quite a scandal with some Navy high ups condemning the concept of aerial bombardment altogether.

It wasn't really new. Bombs have been dropped from balloons before then, and that caused enough of a scandal that the Hague Conventions of 1899 included "Declaration on the Launching of Projectiles and Explosives from Balloons". It was only in effect for 5 years, though.

Poisonous gases were also banned in Hague, and that prohibition didn't have an expiration date, so it was already a war crime in WW1.

Re: Why Don’t We Use Chemical Weapons Anymore?

#165

tl;dr: Because they're tactically and strategically ineffective. They can make serviceable assassination weapons, as can almost anything given the right arrangement of circumstances, but as a tool of warfare, they suck. What I'd really like to see is an analysis from a military historian's perspective of why biological weapons are even more useless, with specific reference to current events. The tl;dr there is that t…

Why aren't chemical weapons (for example VX) effective area denial weapons? They seem damned good for the purpose.

For a VX-contaminated area, you can put your troops in NBC-ready vehicles (which most of your vehicles are) and simply drive through it. You can't do that for a minefield.
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