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From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

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Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#81

Post by GordonS »

Zenst wrote: post #34
makomk wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that it's fine to leave the supply of staples like wheat to large farmers with economies of scale, since that's heavily mechanized and doesn't require many workers, plus the workers it does rely on can be fairly effectively distanced. It's mostly the stuff like fresh fruit and vegetables which is the problem. Those are less reliant on economies of scale and more on cheap imported labour.

Exactly, I grew tomatoes in my flat few years back, was so choice picking a ripe tomato on christmas day grown indoors on a window ledge and no additional lighting needed. Sure can't grow it all, but certainly makes a positive dent in my needs.

Yikes, you grew tomatoes indoors? How did you stand the smell?

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#82

Post by chrisseaton »

gambiting wrote: post #42
maelito wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The countryside everywhere in UK ? Or just around London ?

Around London and a lot of the "south". But come out to Yorkshire or Northumberland and you can buy a farm and some land for very little. Living outside of the city in Northumberland(say within 30 minute driving distance to Newcastle) can be stupidly cheap.

> Living outside of the city in Northumberland(say within 30 minute driving distance to Newcastle) can be stupidly cheap.

Shame there aren't many decently paying jobs there, though. Unless you work remotely I'm not sure what there is compared to the south east?

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#83

Post by jandrewrogers »

411111111111111 wrote: post #8

Nobody forced the farmers to become reliant on migrant workers though. It was just a simple decision for them: cheap labor that's available today or expensive labor... They mostly went with cheap, and now they don't have anyone available. Tough luck I guess, but it always was just a question of time until this happened.

At least in the US, I don't think people appreciate how expensive "expensive" actually is to encourage people to work in a part of the country where no one wants to live. You see the same issue with hiring labor for oil fields in places like North Dakota, where it requires six-figure pay to entice a marginally skilled worker to move out there.

Agriculture has an identical problem in terms of the market clearing wage for labor, except they don't have the profit margins of the oil fields that allow them to throw $100+k at farm labor to make the problem go away. In that version of the world, it would be better to be farm labor than a farmer. It should also be noted that in some parts of the US, the migrant labor is not "cheap" either by any normal definition as they are paid well above the median wage in the US since they have all of the leverage.

When I was growing up a significant fraction of farm labor in my area was ex-convicts from all over the country. The labor supply was so short that it was one of the best paying jobs that would readily hire an ex-convict. You still see some of this but it is greatly reduced, mostly just convicts who are from rural regions and are already accustomed to that environment.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#84

Post by DoreenMichele »

jopsen wrote: post #78
DoreenMichele wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And because young people are less physically fit than they used to be, so they don't have the muscle and stamina required by such jobs. But the reasons why are almost irrelevant. The pertinent detail is that employers can't fill these jobs without immigrant labor. Most Americans don't want them at any pay rate.

At 20 USD/hour I think you would be able to fill these jobs. But if you want to make that salary picking fruit, then we'll have to pay more for it -- or you'll need to have some automation to increase productivity. I doubt we'll want to pay more, consumers would rather buy imports instead.

Everything I have ever read indicates that white Americans don't want farm labor jobs even if you pay $20/hour.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#85

Post by pretendscholar »

broAhmed wrote: post #47
groby_b wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very naive take on the world. You'll need at the very least half an acre to feed yourself sustainably, and that's if you're highly optimized. It's also backbreaking work, and you won't be able to do much else except subsistence farming. In short, it's not practical for the vast majority of the population. The closest we can probably get to this model is instead CSA memberships, supporting farms right outsid…

You can grow a surprising amount on even 0.1 acres. Here's a video where a family grows 6000 pounds on about 4000 square feet. https://youtu.be/NCmTJkZy0rM Granted, they have the whole family pitching in with the labor and it's a full-time job for them.

Is there a good resource for a reasonably educated individual on the theory of farming. That is the theory about growing any foodstuff or useful growable product (livestock,plants,edible mushrooms, even houseplants and pets) and selling those products. Managing the economics, top soil, automation, machine repair and maintenance.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#86

Post by GordonS »

yellowbeard wrote: post #16
alexandernst wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where (physically) do you expect 500.000 (a small town example) people garden their own food? They'd need to travel outside town, garden, then get back (and all this while also commuting to work on a daily basis). Also, the amount of tools every single person would need to buy. "Decentralisation" is a goof idea, but not feasible in the real world, IMHO. And this is a small town example, leave alone a huge capital lik…

Tools can be shared. It's also amazing how little land is needed to grow enough food to live on. One person can be fed from around 9 square meters. In dense cities people may not have that much land, but in many areas, people do have that much land in their yards.

Do you have a source that the 9sqm claim? It seems... completely unbelievable.

My wife's parents grow various vegetables in an area of that size, and there is no way it could provide all their vegetable needs.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#87

Post by DoreenMichele »

throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #75
DoreenMichele wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some years ago, I saw a comedian mock the idea that immigrants were a threat to American jobs by joking that he had always wanted to be an underpaid farm laborer and can't make that dream work because the illegal immigrants took all those jobs. In America, it used to be common for young men in high school and college to do construction work during the summer. Now, it's mostly immigrants. When I was still a military w…

I've done physical work and it's fun at first, and I do like the physicality of it, but it gets boring fast and that I object to. After getting boring it gets soul destroyingly dull. I mean, working eg. in a warehouse can make people hollow. OK, some do like it, but many I knew didn't. Most tolerated it because they had no choice. It's a very good thing for a period, as a part of growing up, but as a career, or for l…

The world at large can make it work if people are willing to do these jobs for short periods of time in their youth before moving on to other things.

The world is going to die of starvation if we literally can't find anyone who will do this work at all for any amount of time at any pay rate.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#88

Post by banmeagaindan2 »

aazaa wrote: post #60

> From Huelva to Hamburg and Newcastle to Naples, Europe’s farmers are struggling to find people to bring in rapidly ripening fruits and vegetables, which frequently must be hand-picked, usually within a window of just a few days. They typically rely on seasonal workers from eastern Europe or northern Africa, but fears of the coronavirus are keeping hundreds of thousands of migrant laborers from leaving home, and con…

I am up for doing some fruit picking if it can be organized correctly. The strategy of allowing in migrant labour would be a political fiasco.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#90

Post by yunusabd »

baybal2 wrote: post #68

Coworkers in Shenzhen are already saying that more fancier foods are already getting scarcer in the inland China, and prices are going up by day. China has done a massive livestock slaughter campaign when the quarantine was declared. That has actually depressed the food prices quite a bit for the first months, but after that, the prices have shot up. This is how they got that much meat: https://mustsharenews.com/wp-c…

Your second link goes to a still image. I assume you mean this [1] video? Though I don't see how that supports the statement that China has spent a big portion of its national reserve.

[1] https://twitter.com/laurie_garrett/status/122072527639456563...

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