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How South Korea Reined In The Outbreak Without Shutting Everything Down

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Re: How South Korea Reined In The Outbreak Without Shutting Everything Down

#231

Post by checker659 »

mcsb4 wrote: post #21

Again another article that doesn't even mention the use of masks and hand sanitizer. The cost of the epidemic now goes into the trillions, self-made cotton masks are cheap compared to the economic damage. They can be disinfected in boiling water and if everybody uses them they will help to stop the spreading of the virus. In all the countries mentioned in the article people wear masks when in public, often just again…

Exactly. Masks are like dampeners. Even if not everyone's masks are good (cloth masks), they'll still slow the spread, hence significantly fattening the curve.

Advising people to not wear mask is the biggest disservice the American government (and the CDC) did to its people. Just asking people to cover their mouths with bandanas and scarfs would've helped a lot.

I shudder when I see reporters in a breakout zone reporting without masks on. Man.

Re: How South Korea Reined In The Outbreak Without Shutting Everything Down

#232

Post by im3w1l »

DanBC wrote: post #212
tekkk wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are confusing "masks" as "surgical masks" aka. N95. He is meaning just the regular masks with no filtering whatsoever, that are very easy to manufacture. Hell you can even make them yourself. The N95 however, are quite difficult to build and require specialized machines to manufacture the filtering part, somebody linked a good article to it a couple days ago. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/03/16/8…

PPE recommendations are a bit confusing. WHO currently says that healthcare professionals in non-AGP areas who aren't doing AGP should wear surgical mask, gloves, apron, and do a risk assessment for eye protection. All of that PPE is single use. This is the current practice in English NHS settings. See here: https://twitter.com/OutbreakJake/status/1242020875328684038 If aerosol generating procedures are happening the…

If you are in contact with infections substances all day every day you need 99.99999% (I'm pulling this figure outta my ass, but you get the picture) protection. To bring R0 below 1 you need 75% protection. That's why we saw advice like "just wash your hands" - ultimately inadequate, but it wasn't apriori silly.

Re: How South Korea Reined In The Outbreak Without Shutting Everything Down

#233

Post by ceejayoz »

throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #52
Lewton wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously. How is it possible to still be ignorant about the (up to) 2 week asymptomatic incubation period? This is the entire reason why the virus is so dangerous! And where did OP mention anything about masks protecting the carrier from infection?

See my other reply. Plus I said "And if YOU are infected you should not be out anyway"

> Plus I said "And if YOU are infected you should not be out anyway"

The point you're missing there is that some people are asymptomatic. They don't know they're infected.

Re: How South Korea Reined In The Outbreak Without Shutting Everything Down

#234

Post by viklove »

h91wka wrote: post #94
Freestyler_3 wrote: post #8

They took proactive measurements when the rest of the world was still looking at how things would develop. Making tests well before they had their first case. When my country got its first cases they were still saying it isn't that contagious and everything is fine.

My key takeaway from this entire situation is that authorities in Europe and USA don't understand how exponent works. Every country that is now suffering from the pandemic went through "c'mon, it's just 10 cases" phase. We had ~two months to observe how the situation unfolds in Asia, yet learned nothing. As for me, back in late February when I checked the dashboard and saw that ~10 cases were registered in my country…

> Europe and USA don't understand how exponent works.

Oh, they know how exponents work. They only care when it affects their bottom line. It's clear that the working class are just lambs for slaughter when the corporate overlords look at them.

Re: How South Korea Reined In The Outbreak Without Shutting Everything Down

#235

Post by viklove »

adventured wrote: post #18
pmorici wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least initially I read that Philippines didn’t even have testing capability and had to send samples to Australia to be tested. You don’t find what you don’t look for.

You wouldn't have to look for them in these situations (the context of these nations), it would show up in your intensive care system and swamp your hospitals with thousands upon thousands of ICU-level cases. That effect even showed up somewhat in Russia, in heightened pneumonia cases (they're now admitting it's likely far more widespread than the positive case results would imply). It's not easy to hide or disregard…

That's assuming that there is a culture of going to the hospital when you have bad flu conditions. It's safe to assume that for the vast majority of laborers in third-world countries, hospital services are not within reach. They just tough it out at home.

Re: How South Korea Reined In The Outbreak Without Shutting Everything Down

#236

Post by endorphone »

throwaway743 wrote: post #68
endorphone wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"no known protective effect" Right. No one has ever studied contagions among the community at large and the effect of masks. When you hear people say there is no evidence, this is what they are referring. "is not thought to be any more protective than not wearing one" This is taking that claim too far, and is seldom what they're saying. Or rather never what they are saying. Early on there were PDAs that discouraged m…

>a) there is a weird social effect in much of the West where people get panicky, and somehow view someone else wearing a mask as increasing the odds, or at least the reality, that they instead will get sick Definitely experienced the stigma of wearing one in public. Have had reactions ranging from stares to hurriedly moving away from me. > We need to discard with that bullshit. We know with overwhelming evidence that…

"Definitely experienced the stigma of wearing one in public"

People can be deeply illogical when it comes to personal protection. I did a summer stint during college with a factory, assembling some part of an air conditioner system for cars. This was done with huge, incredibly loud machines. Fiberglass. Etc.

The company offered ear plugs, eye protection and masks. No one used them. There was a 0% utilization rate. It was bizarre. I did, however, and earned snarky comments, critical suggestions, and lots of sideways glances. People really seemed to feel that my concern for myself made the threats more real.

I'd like to say that when I left everyone had followed the path I blazed, but it was the same as it always was. People still sabotaged their own health and hearing to avoid looking "paranoid".

Re: How South Korea Reined In The Outbreak Without Shutting Everything Down

#237

Post by h91wka »

viklove wrote: post #234
h91wka wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My key takeaway from this entire situation is that authorities in Europe and USA don't understand how exponent works. Every country that is now suffering from the pandemic went through "c'mon, it's just 10 cases" phase. We had ~two months to observe how the situation unfolds in Asia, yet learned nothing. As for me, back in late February when I checked the dashboard and saw that ~10 cases were registered in my country…

> Europe and USA don't understand how exponent works. Oh, they know how exponents work. They only care when it affects their bottom line. It's clear that the working class are just lambs for slaughter when the corporate overlords look at them.

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. By delaying the response they made their bottom line sink exponentially deeper.

Re: How South Korea Reined In The Outbreak Without Shutting Everything Down

#238

Post by checker659 »

Donald wrote: post #211
koonsolo wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but it needs to be a 'proper' mask. Yesterday I was in a shop and saw 2 different people with a scarf over their mouth. You would think this is no problem, but they both had to keep this scarf up with their hands... . Seems like the most effective way to spread and receive germs. Govermnent needs to be clear what the protocol is.

Even cloth filters out 70% of respiratory virus particles. The notion that only a properly fitted N95 mask is effective is ridiculous and is probably costing lives.

This. Also, nobody ever talks about double masking. You know, if you've got no N95, then put on two surgical masks (each facing the other way). If you don't have surgical marks, wear two cloth masks and wash them with antiseptic solution daily.

Re: How South Korea Reined In The Outbreak Without Shutting Everything Down

#239

Post by magduf »

tekkk wrote: post #186
hristov wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with use of masks in the US is that we do not have enough masks and we need them all for health care workers. If there aren't enough masks for health care workers, doctors and nurses will stop coming to work people won't be able to get medical attention the death rate will sky rocket because of lack of simple medical procedures, there will be panic in the streets, etc. For this reason our media seems to b…

You are confusing "masks" as "surgical masks" aka. N95. He is meaning just the regular masks with no filtering whatsoever, that are very easy to manufacture. Hell you can even make them yourself. The N95 however, are quite difficult to build and require specialized machines to manufacture the filtering part, somebody linked a good article to it a couple days ago. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/03/16/8…

Surgical masks don't need to offer complete protection. For one thing, something is better than nothing. But more importantly, the reason people in Asia wear these masks isn't really to protect themselves from getting sick, it's to protect everyone else from getting sick from them. It's a product of a culture that values acting in the interest of the group instead of only in your own selfish self-interest.

So it's sorta like "herd immunity": if everyone is wearing a mask to keep everyone else from catching whatever they might have, it makes it much harder for diseases to spread around and everyone benefits.

Re: How South Korea Reined In The Outbreak Without Shutting Everything Down

#240

Post by magduf »

DanBC wrote: post #215
bitexploder wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of masks sold retail can’t be used in hospital settings in America. Many hospitals have strict rules about procurement and origination of things like N95 masks. Meanwhile, I can order comparable masks from China and have them in less than a week in quantity. It’s very much cultural as well as government response (why we are sucking so much at controlling this).

> I can order comparable masks from China Why would you buy safety critical equipment from China? There are good reasons those hospitals have such strict requirements. http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-03/12/c_138870714.htm > A joint law enforcement operation by government agencies including the State Administration for Market Regulation (SAMR) was launched in early February, with over 80 million defective face m…

>Why would you buy safety critical equipment from China?

1) Because that's where it's made

2) Because they're obviously a lot more competent at public health than we are. We don't know WTF we are doing.

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