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How South Korea Reined In The Outbreak Without Shutting Everything Down

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Re: How South Korea Reined In The Outbreak Without Shutting Everything Down

#91

Post by dirtyid »

tooltalk wrote: post #84
dirtyid wrote: post #66

South Korea is basically an island, conducted serendipitous did large scale pandemic drill in December, has a compliant population with mandatory civil service and memory of recent authoritarian government, can mobilize techno-authoritarian surveillance. My question is, what is happening in Japan? Except wide spread mask usage, they have systemic undertesting at 1/6 capacity, no social distance measures, nothing shut…

I have no idea where this stereotype comes from, but South Korea is known for militant political movement (eg, labor unions, super right-wingers) and religious fanatics: https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/02/27/coronavirus-south-korea...

What stereotype are you referring to?

Re: How South Korea Reined In The Outbreak Without Shutting Everything Down

#92

Post by Mediterraneo10 »

robjan wrote: post #90
Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hong Kong is legally part of China, not a separate country, and its coronavirus strategy has been overseen by the same top Chinese officials as in mainland China.

That is not true. Hong Kong has its own government. Yes, the government collaborates with China but we have a separate legal system and are treated as a separate country for customs and immigration purposes.

> We have a separate legal system and are treated as a separate country for customs and immigration purposes.

Of course Hong Kong has its own legal system and maintains its own customs and immigrations. However, mass epidemological response is carried out in accordance with the demands of mainland China, and so it is no surprise that Hong Kong is not being distinguished from mainland China as the OP expected.

Re: How South Korea Reined In The Outbreak Without Shutting Everything Down

#93

Post by endorphone »

throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #83
endorphone wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"no known protective effect" Right. No one has ever studied contagions among the community at large and the effect of masks. When you hear people say there is no evidence, this is what they are referring. "is not thought to be any more protective than not wearing one" This is taking that claim too far, and is seldom what they're saying. Or rather never what they are saying. Early on there were PDAs that discouraged m…

> that's why medical professionals wear them Of course we know it works for them, because in your own words "coming into contact with a SARS-CoV-2 carrier was low, whereas it's high for medical professionals" > We know with overwhelming evidence that masks work Yes they do, for medical professionals. I'm referring to non-medical situations, and I guess I didn't make that clear. I'm trying to understand why... well, I…

We don't work for you. Your various snotty replies aren't useful.

"Of course we know it works for them"

How does this anti-logic make any sense? Do you think the masks have a sensor that turns off the "works" bit if it's on the face of a medical professional or not?

This is bit like demanding to see research that gravity has an impact on alpacas. We know fundamentally how gravity has an effect on mass, so it follows. Just as we know the fundamental filtering ability, and contagion spread limiting, of masks, including even surgical masks. We know that the CDC is telling health workers that don't have masks to even use a bandana wrap, as not only does it stop face contact it has some limited utility in stopping the tiny droplets of liquid that are one of SARS-CoV-2's vectors.

Re: How South Korea Reined In The Outbreak Without Shutting Everything Down

#94

Post by h91wka »

Freestyler_3 wrote: post #8

They took proactive measurements when the rest of the world was still looking at how things would develop. Making tests well before they had their first case. When my country got its first cases they were still saying it isn't that contagious and everything is fine.

My key takeaway from this entire situation is that authorities in Europe and USA don't understand how exponent works. Every country that is now suffering from the pandemic went through "c'mon, it's just 10 cases" phase. We had ~two months to observe how the situation unfolds in Asia, yet learned nothing. As for me, back in late February when I checked the dashboard and saw that ~10 cases were registered in my country, I decided that "nope, I am not going to use public transportation any time soon".

It should be mandatory for any politician or government clerk to take an exam in differential equations. There _was_ time to prepare, and there was a chance to contain the situation.

Re: How South Korea Reined In The Outbreak Without Shutting Everything Down

#95

Post by jussij »

netsharc wrote: post #53
Freestyler_3 wrote: post #8

They took proactive measurements when the rest of the world was still looking at how things would develop. Making tests well before they had their first case. When my country got its first cases they were still saying it isn't that contagious and everything is fine.

It's a bit of luck that the coutry had a private biotech company that makes tests for viruses, and the CEO of said company looked at Wuhan and decided to get samples from China. I suppose, just like every country has a military or people managing their transportation infrastructure, there should be a "pandemic watch". (Well the US had a good one until Trump/John Bolton defunded it)

The US military provide plenty of early advice suggesting a pandemic was on it way, but that advice was mostly ignored:

https://ktvz.com/politics/2020/03/21/washington-post-us-inte...

Some of the politicians did heed the advice, at least when it came to managing their share portfolios, taking the opportunity to sell up while telling their constituents there was no imminent threat:

https://www.propublica.org/article/senator-dumped-up-to-1-7-...

Re: How South Korea Reined In The Outbreak Without Shutting Everything Down

#96

Post by rjzzleep »

kstenerud wrote: post #89
mcsb4 wrote: post #21

Again another article that doesn't even mention the use of masks and hand sanitizer. The cost of the epidemic now goes into the trillions, self-made cotton masks are cheap compared to the economic damage. They can be disinfected in boiling water and if everybody uses them they will help to stop the spreading of the virus. In all the countries mentioned in the article people wear masks when in public, often just again…

If you look at the data here [1] (desktop edition because the mobile edition doesn't have drill down), you can see that all countries (including Asian) are following the same pattern in the "daily increase" graph (click a country on the left to see its data). The only outliers are China and South Korea (flatline), and Japan (flattened curve). So while masks may have some effect, it hasn't been enough to give differen…

Yeah, except you happily disregard the fact that a lot of asian countries including china have reimported cases mostly from Europe and the US. I'm pretty curious how this plays out in those countries.

Re: How South Korea Reined In The Outbreak Without Shutting Everything Down

#97

Post by tooltalk »

dirtyid wrote: post #91
tooltalk wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea where this stereotype comes from, but South Korea is known for militant political movement (eg, labor unions, super right-wingers) and religious fanatics: https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/02/27/coronavirus-south-korea...

What stereotype are you referring to?

> ... compliant population with mandatory civil service and memory of recent authoritarian government, can mobilize techno-authoritarian surveillance. ...

Re: How South Korea Reined In The Outbreak Without Shutting Everything Down

#98

Post by mcsb4 »

kstenerud wrote: post #89
mcsb4 wrote: post #21

Again another article that doesn't even mention the use of masks and hand sanitizer. The cost of the epidemic now goes into the trillions, self-made cotton masks are cheap compared to the economic damage. They can be disinfected in boiling water and if everybody uses them they will help to stop the spreading of the virus. In all the countries mentioned in the article people wear masks when in public, often just again…

If you look at the data here [1] (desktop edition because the mobile edition doesn't have drill down), you can see that all countries (including Asian) are following the same pattern in the "daily increase" graph (click a country on the left to see its data). The only outliers are China and South Korea (flatline), and Japan (flattened curve). So while masks may have some effect, it hasn't been enough to give differen…

Did you read the NPR article? The very first chart shows that there is a big difference between the various countries. The logarithmic scale allows for much better visualisation than the almost nonsensical charts on the John Hopkins statistics page. The circles are also a completely inadequate visualisation. I.e. much better would be coloring countries by incident rate per 100.000 inhabitants.

They do a good job collecting all the data but a seriously bad job visualising them.

Re: How South Korea Reined In The Outbreak Without Shutting Everything Down

#99

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

Yizahi wrote: post #78
mcsb4 wrote: post #21

Again another article that doesn't even mention the use of masks and hand sanitizer. The cost of the epidemic now goes into the trillions, self-made cotton masks are cheap compared to the economic damage. They can be disinfected in boiling water and if everybody uses them they will help to stop the spreading of the virus. In all the countries mentioned in the article people wear masks when in public, often just again…

I use self made cotton mask to go for groceries. It's garbage - it doesn't fit tightly around the face and most of the air I inhale or exhale goes through the sides unobstructed. Proper masks would be nice but unavailable everywhere and of course washing hands is a must.

It's not about protecting you from other people, it's about protecting other people from you. Many people are asymptomatic or very mildly sick, yet are able to infect other people. When you cough or wipe your nose, you risk infecting other people. The cheap mask prevents you from touching your face as much and catches heavier particles that can't curve around the bends of the facemask as easily like water and mucus.

Re: How South Korea Reined In The Outbreak Without Shutting Everything Down

#100

Post by KarlKemp »

cyphar wrote: post #64
throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read repeatedly (and heard on the radio several times) that wearing a mask if YOU are infected will help protect other people, but if you are not infected then it has no known protective effect ie. is not thought to be any more protective than not wearing one. Do you have any evidence to back up you talk of masks? (And if YOU are infected you should not be out anyway) Edit: I was thinking of non-medical situatio…

This was a coordinated (dare I say "propaganda") campaign by US and other government officials in order to try to avoid mask shortages[1]. A noble goal, sure -- but the net result is that people are now misinformed about the efficacy of masks. The evidence very much shows that wearing masks can reduce community transmission rates of SARS-like viruses -- up to 70% even with just plain surgical masks[2]. And even if yo…

Scott Alexander has a good post on this, and he convinced me of a “good faith” explanation for the recommendations against (or, more accurately, “not in favor of”) face masks: https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/03/23/face-masks-much-more-t...
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