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Toki Pona: A Language with a Hundred Words (2015)

theatlantic.com

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Re: Toki Pona: A Language with a Hundred Words (2015)

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> kaoD says 'I don't think most native speakers realize "poor" is an adjective here That's because...it is not an adjective there. It is a mass noun.

I'm not agreeing with him. But "it is a mass noun" has its own problems. It isn't possible to use "poor" in that sense without using the full phrase the poor . I think it's best analyzed as a fixed phrase.

> But "it is a mass noun" has its own problems. It isn't possible to use "poor" in that sense without using the full phrase the poor.

Sure, there's a very broad class of syntactically plural mass nouns without singular countable forms for which that is the case — interestingly, countable nouns with a similar relation to adjectives can become mass noun when their plural form is used with “the”.

Re: Toki Pona: A Language with a Hundred Words (2015)

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bloody wish there were good modern Esperanto courses. I've found a Michel Thomas method Esperanto course once but it was incomplete. I would really love to buy a complete one (even for a price higher than what other languages cost). Intuition suggests I'm not the only one interested although there probably are not too many. This means the demand, albeit humble, certainly is higher than the offer. You might consider…

Have you tried Duolingo ( https://www.duolingo.com/course/eo/en/Learn-Esperanto )? If so, what did you think of it? It's free, with a subscription option for more features.

It's nice but fairly boring (e.g. too much repetitions of the same stupid questions) and not even nearly as good as Michel Thomas or Pimsleur.

I wish somebody would just take something like one of those courses for e.g. Spanish and replace Spanish words with Esperanto. Obviously that would mean pirating the actual method but it would be blatantly hypocritical of me to pretend I care. With a croudsourcing campaign, however, there are chances to do that (or something even more interesting) officially, pay the royalties etc and I would gladly contribute a reasonable amount of money.

Re: Toki Pona: A Language with a Hundred Words (2015)

#113

It's weird to see so many words that I already "know" from the Tokipona language just because I'm Finnish and lived a few years in Poland. The words in Tokipona have of course a "wider scope" in their meaning, but here's a few I spotted scrolling through a Tokipona dictionary [1]: "Kala" is a fish both in Finnish and Tokipona, "nena" is a nose in Tokipona which is "nenä" in Finnish, "sina" (you) is "sinä" in Finnish,…

I'm currently wondering if learning a "toy" language would help me learn a real language, in my case Finnish.

I'm pretty sure the best way is just to jump straight into Finnish, no point of getting confused by other languages or even toy languages.

If you don't speak any other language than English (your website says you're Scottish) there's some positives in that also as you will have a strong place in your brain for Finnish as that "other language" and you won't freeze so easily when you must speak it. What I'm trying to say is that I at least find myself very often "frozen" when having a conversation in a language in which my level is similar to another language. Polish and Spanish are both languages that I'm able to survive with but if I'm looking for the word e.g. for "Saturday" in Polish I might suddenly find myself stuck in the Spanish word for it. Add Swedish to the confusion and I might as well give up and hope to be understood in English, which is also not my first language, but at least I have a much more strong grasp of it than other languages (except Finnish) so that it isn't subject to the confusion most of the time. YMMV but I hope you get the point and maybe even find some encouragement in it to just start learning Finnish straight away.

Also, since you are Scottish you might already be able to roll your R's and pronounce the letters "ä" and "ö" the "Finnish way" since at least some Scottish accents have those "sounds", which is not the case for e.g. Australian, North American or Southern English accents.

Let me know if you want a Finn to talk to and I'll shoot you an email. ;)

Re: Toki Pona: A Language with a Hundred Words (2015)

#114
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not agreeing with him. But "it is a mass noun" has its own problems. It isn't possible to use "poor" in that sense without using the full phrase the poor . I think it's best analyzed as a fixed phrase.

> I think it's best analyzed as a fixed phrase. And how did that phrase come to be? Noun ellipsis in "the poor people" (or "the poor ones" to be more general).

Definitely not. Try finding a citation for the phrase you conjecture, without the ellipsis.

It seems more likely to have originated as a direct calque of French les pauvres.

Re: Toki Pona: A Language with a Hundred Words (2015)

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not agreeing with him. But "it is a mass noun" has its own problems. It isn't possible to use "poor" in that sense without using the full phrase the poor . I think it's best analyzed as a fixed phrase.

> But "it is a mass noun" has its own problems. It isn't possible to use "poor" in that sense without using the full phrase the poor. Sure, there's a very broad class of syntactically plural mass nouns without singular countable forms for which that is the case — interestingly, countable nouns with a similar relation to adjectives can become mass noun when their plural form is used with “the”.

> Sure, there's a very broad class of syntactically plural mass nouns without singular countable forms for which that is the case

Can you give an example of what you're talking about? If you mean something like "scissors", that's not true -- it's perfectly possible to say "I like scissors".

Re: Toki Pona: A Language with a Hundred Words (2015)

#116
post #34
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may not be a concisely expressive language, but I like that the small number of word units means it would be easier to use as an intermediary language than Esperanto. Another practical step could be to identify a specific minimal set of language units required for any given popular nonconstructed language. Is this already a thing?

Yes, those units are called 'semantic primes/primitives': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_primes

Thank you for the reference.

Re: Toki Pona: A Language with a Hundred Words (2015)

#117
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it's best analyzed as a fixed phrase. And how did that phrase come to be? Noun ellipsis in "the poor people" (or "the poor ones" to be more general).

Definitely not. Try finding a citation for the phrase you conjecture, without the ellipsis. It seems more likely to have originated as a direct calque of French les pauvres .

18 million results in Google.

Another example: "the Chinese people" (we'd just say "the Chinese"), 10M results.

> It seems more likely to have originated as a direct calque of French les pauvres.

Definitely. Spanish "los pobres" too. Phrases with adjectives as nouns (again, I'd say originating from ellipsis) are very common in romance languages.

E.g. "los rojos" = "the red ones"

Notice how in English my proposed adjective ("poor") lacks the plural "s" (like adjectives do in English) unlike Spanish/French, which do agree adjectives plural forms with their nouns.

Re: Toki Pona: A Language with a Hundred Words (2015)

#118
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely not. Try finding a citation for the phrase you conjecture, without the ellipsis. It seems more likely to have originated as a direct calque of French les pauvres .

18 million results in Google. Another example: "the Chinese people" (we'd just say "the Chinese"), 10M results. > It seems more likely to have originated as a direct calque of French les pauvres. Definitely. Spanish "los pobres" too. Phrases with adjectives as nouns (again, I'd say originating from ellipsis) are very common in romance languages. E.g. "los rojos" = "the red ones" Notice how in English my proposed adje…

> 18 million results in Google.

That's not a response. Those results are overwhelmingly not synonymous with the phrase "the poor", which would be clear immediately if you looked at them.

If I search for "the poor people", I get told there are 22M results. The entire first page is taken up by references to a proper noun, The Poor People's Campaign; searching for '"the poor people" -campaign' cuts reported results to 12M, and the new results prominently feature The Poor People's Crusade. This is not a compelling argument that the phrase "the poor people" is permissible in the same contexts that allow "the poor" (which would be necessary if this were a case of ellipsis).

> Another example: "the Chinese people" (we'd just say "the Chinese"), 10M results.

That's a much better example; I'm willing to concede that "the Chinese people" and "the Chinese" mean the same thing and can be used in the same ways. But you haven't made the argument that the equivalence between "the Chinese people" and "the Chinese" transfers over to an equivalence between "the poor people" and "the poor".[1] I claim you cannot do this, because "the poor people" and "the poor" are not equivalent.

Note also that the parallel construction to "the Chinese" is "the Italians", not "the Italian". But we obviously can't claim that "the Italians" is ellipsed from "the Italian people". We also shouldn't claim that "the Chinese" is ellipsed from "the Chinese people".

[1] For one thing, people in "the Chinese people" is not even the same word as people in "the poor people"; "the poor people" uses Merriam-Webster's sense 2 ("plural form of person"), while "the Chinese people" uses sense 5 ("singular noun of which the plural is peoples; a body of persons that are united by a common culture, tradition, or sense of kinship"). https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/people

Re: Toki Pona: A Language with a Hundred Words (2015)

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ogden's Basic English [1] with 850 words [2] and a simplified grammar was an attempt at making an international auxiliary language from English. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_English [2] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Basic_English_word_l...

I have long wondered whether it would be possible to identify the most basic, core words of English, and construct a dictionary such that all definitions eventually reduce to those words. That way, a speaker of a foreign language could learn the meanings of the core words by translation into their native language, and then the process of learning a new word would be: look it up in the dictionary, and if there are any…

Works well as a learning tool, but fails miserably for translation. The underlying assumption "the mapping between words in a pair of languages is simple" starts falling apart beyond the most basic introductory course.

Re: Toki Pona: A Language with a Hundred Words (2015)

#120
post #96
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Philippines, The United States, The Great Lakes The point is that they are all names for a unique entity. There are no multiple Philippines - there's only one. Yet we should say "The Philippines", while we cannot say "The Switzerland." Similarly, we aren't talking about "a particular group of united states among multiple such groups" - for example, nobody calls Germany "The United States", even if it's made of…

> The Philippines, The United States, The Great Lakes See saithound's reply. > it's not a definite group of people Yes it is. It's a specific subset of people (the poor) that can be picked apart from the rest (the non-poor). > E.g., "I met those refugees on the road, so I asked the poor [refugees] a few questions." Again, I see nothing weird with this (?) You seem to have a problem with ellipsis (and yes, that's hard…

> Yes it is. It's a specific subset of people (the poor) that can be picked apart from the rest (the non-poor).

I think the issue is that it doesn't necessarily refer to the people mentioned in the first clause. To me it sounds like a non-sequitur, e.g. 'I met those refugees on the road, so I [went elsewhere and] asked the poor a few questions [to see if they would have some insight on the refugees I met earlier].'

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