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Toki Pona: A Language with a Hundred Words (2015)

theatlantic.com

101–110 of 132 posts

Re: Toki Pona: A Language with a Hundred Words (2015)

#101
post #79
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> any attempt to give simple rules for this part of English grammar will fail, and will not generalize to other languages with articles Can you elaborate? (Genuinely interested: I like languages, don't know much about NLP). GP's explanation was just wrong, but articles are pretty well defined, easy to explain, and generalize well to other languages. - "The" (definite article) marks a noun that refers to a particular…

Consider: The Philippines The United States The Great Lakes the poor a means of production a number of hamsters the number of hamsters a shirt, but a piece of garment, and a pair of pants A lion chased him. (a particular lion) A lion is a ferocious beast. (lions in general)

I took the trouble to classify all of these according to Huddleston & Pullum ( https://www.amazon.com/dp/0521431468 ). For most of these, they're just fixed (or nearly-fixed) expressions.

1. The Philippines / The United States / The Great Lakes / the poor

5.8.4(b), Fixed expressions containing the definite article.

"In such cases, it is largely arbitrary that the definite article is required rather than a bare noun."

(kaoD says 'I don't think most native speakers realize "poor" is an adjective here', but there's good reason for that -- it is not ordinarily possible to construct a the+adjective phrase.)

Examples: [17iii] I have (the) measles.; [17v] We caught the bus.

2. A means of production

This is not at all idiomatic (Marxist rhetoric invariably refers to the means of production), so this is a simple example of 5.6.2, The indefinite article a.

"The indefinite article a is the most basic indicator of indefiniteness for singular count nouns." (here, means)

Example: [9a] Bring me a ladder!

3. A number of hamsters.

5.3.3(a), Number-transparent quantificational nouns

"Both [number and couple] occur in singular form with an obligatory determiner (usually a, but others are possible []), and in addition number can occur in the plural, and take a limited range of adjectival modifiers"

"The definite article the does not occur with number in the sense we are concerned with here."

Examples: [58i] We found huge numbers of ants swarming all over the place.; [58v] An unusually large number of people have applied this year.

4. The number of hamsters.

5.6.1, The definite article the

"The definite article the is the most basic indicator of definiteness."

"Use of the definite article [] indicates that I expect you to be able to identify the referent -- the individual ladder, the set of ladders, the quantity of cement [or quantity of hamsters] that I am referring to."

In order for this phrase to be grammatical, you need to use number in its ordinary, non-quantificational sense, as in "That depends on the number of hamsters you've put in the cage".

Examples: [1] Bring me the ladder!; [6vii] They are interviewing the man who mows her lawn.

5. A shirt / a piece of furniture / a pair of pants

You appear to be talking about the difference between mass nouns (pants / bread / furniture) and count nouns (shirt). This is discussed in 5.2 ("Overview of noun classes and NP structure"), but has absolutely nothing to do with definiteness or choice of determiner. However, a cannot be used with mass nouns because a requires a count of one, and mass nouns cannot be counted.

6. A lion chased him. (a particular lion)

5.6.2, The indefinite article a

Exactly the same as in "a means of production".

7. A lion is a ferocious beast. (lions in general)

5.8.3(i), Generic interpretations

"The interpretation of singular indefinites in the same context, like a lion in [iia], is correspondingly "any lion that exists."

"The generic use of a singular definite like the lion is also possible in the context given in [iiia], but is an example of the restricted 'class' use of the definite article (see 5.8.4 below). If instead of lions we were talking about doctors, the definite singular would not generally be possible"

"In The lions are ferocious beasts, the plural definite the lions would also obligatorily be interpreted non-generically."

"With predicates that can only be applied to a set, a singular indefinite generic such as a lion is inadmissible"

Examples: [14i] Lions are ferocious beasts. ; [14ii] A lion is a ferocious beast.; [14iii] The lion is a ferocious beast.; [16c] This chapter describes the English noun phrase.

----

I have no real point; this was mostly for fun.

However, I'm a little confused as to why "a means of production" / "the number of hamsters" / "a shirt" / "a lion chased him" are in your list, since they're typical examples of the most common use of the / a as described above.

There is some overlap between the poor and the class use of the definite article, but it's not a perfect match, because it isn't possible to use poor in the same sense without accompanying it with the.

Re: Toki Pona: A Language with a Hundred Words (2015)

#102
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider: The Philippines The United States The Great Lakes the poor a means of production a number of hamsters the number of hamsters a shirt, but a piece of garment, and a pair of pants A lion chased him. (a particular lion) A lion is a ferocious beast. (lions in general)

I took the trouble to classify all of these according to Huddleston & Pullum ( https://www.amazon.com/dp/0521431468 ). For most of these, they're just fixed (or nearly-fixed) expressions. 1. The Philippines / The United States / The Great Lakes / the poor 5.8.4(b), Fixed expressions containing the definite article. "In such cases, it is largely arbitrary that the definite article is required rather than a bare noun."…

> kaoD says 'I don't think most native speakers realize "poor" is an adjective here

That's because...it is not an adjective there. It is a mass noun.

Re: Toki Pona: A Language with a Hundred Words (2015)

#103

In high school I was the founder of our (small) Esperanto Club. I gave Esperanto lessons each week at our club meeting designed as a one year course, usually by the end of the year if someone attended each week and did moderate self study outside of class they could communicate in Esperanto really well. We even had one international student who really struggled with english that after a few months of attending our cl…

I bloody wish there were good modern Esperanto courses. I've found a Michel Thomas method Esperanto course once but it was incomplete. I would really love to buy a complete one (even for a price higher than what other languages cost). Intuition suggests I'm not the only one interested although there probably are not too many. This means the demand, albeit humble, certainly is higher than the offer. You might consider…

Have you tried Duolingo (https://www.duolingo.com/course/eo/en/Learn-Esperanto)? If so, what did you think of it? It's free, with a subscription option for more features.

Re: Toki Pona: A Language with a Hundred Words (2015)

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I took the trouble to classify all of these according to Huddleston & Pullum ( https://www.amazon.com/dp/0521431468 ). For most of these, they're just fixed (or nearly-fixed) expressions. 1. The Philippines / The United States / The Great Lakes / the poor 5.8.4(b), Fixed expressions containing the definite article. "In such cases, it is largely arbitrary that the definite article is required rather than a bare noun."…

> kaoD says 'I don't think most native speakers realize "poor" is an adjective here That's because...it is not an adjective there. It is a mass noun.

I'm not agreeing with him. But "it is a mass noun" has its own problems. It isn't possible to use "poor" in that sense without using the full phrase the poor. I think it's best analyzed as a fixed phrase.

Re: Toki Pona: A Language with a Hundred Words (2015)

#105

It's weird to see so many words that I already "know" from the Tokipona language just because I'm Finnish and lived a few years in Poland. The words in Tokipona have of course a "wider scope" in their meaning, but here's a few I spotted scrolling through a Tokipona dictionary [1]: "Kala" is a fish both in Finnish and Tokipona, "nena" is a nose in Tokipona which is "nenä" in Finnish, "sina" (you) is "sinä" in Finnish,…

I'm currently wondering if learning a "toy" language would help me learn a real language, in my case Finnish.

Re: Toki Pona: A Language with a Hundred Words (2015)

#106
post #100
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting to me that you focus on the 'high' meaning of sewi, because I've always focused on the 'religious' or 'divine' meaning. So I would hear "lawa sewi" as something like 'religious head' or 'religious leader'. Probably my first parse of "soweli pi lawa sewi" would be 'the rabbi's cat' or something, rather than a giraffe. Or I would imagine an animal whose head is similar to some concept or representation…

sina (anu jan ante) li pali ala pali e sitelen sin ni tan toki mi? https://www.reddit.com/r/mi_lon/comments/fpjomk/soweli_pi_la...

a a a. ken!

Re: Toki Pona: A Language with a Hundred Words (2015)

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I took the trouble to classify all of these according to Huddleston & Pullum ( https://www.amazon.com/dp/0521431468 ). For most of these, they're just fixed (or nearly-fixed) expressions. 1. The Philippines / The United States / The Great Lakes / the poor 5.8.4(b), Fixed expressions containing the definite article. "In such cases, it is largely arbitrary that the definite article is required rather than a bare noun."…

> kaoD says 'I don't think most native speakers realize "poor" is an adjective here That's because...it is not an adjective there. It is a mass noun.

It's a mass noun just because the adjective turned into a noun (sorry, don't know the technical terms in English) when the real noun was elided.

In "the poor people", "poor" is an adjective. If you elide "people" and turn the phrase into "the poor", it has to be a noun (otherwise we'd have a noun phrase without a noun).

Though IMHO it's better analyzed as an adjective with an elided noun, but I'm afraid I lost that war ages ago :shrug:

But I personally prefer to analyze what makes sense, not what's written (considering language is language). I'd rather have a regular case with an ellipsis than "oh, it's just a fixed phrase" and a zillion other corner cases.

Re: Toki Pona: A Language with a Hundred Words (2015)

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> imagine explaining the word "the" to someone whose native language doesn't have an article Much like "turn out", there are many different ways in which "the" might be used. But as contrasted with "a" ("explain it to someone who doesn't have articles"), it's not that bad -- "the" is used to mark noun phrases that are already present in the conversational context, and "a" is used to introduce new noun phrases into th…

> "the" is used to mark noun phrases that are already present in the conversational context, and "a" is used to introduce new noun phrases into the conversational context. > (Compare "there's some guy outside scaring customers away" with "there are some guys outside scaring customers away", then consider that a would only be permissible in the first one.) This rule is OK but it fails for the following case: A man you…

[deleted]

Re: Toki Pona: A Language with a Hundred Words (2015)

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> kaoD says 'I don't think most native speakers realize "poor" is an adjective here That's because...it is not an adjective there. It is a mass noun.

I'm not agreeing with him. But "it is a mass noun" has its own problems. It isn't possible to use "poor" in that sense without using the full phrase the poor . I think it's best analyzed as a fixed phrase.

> I think it's best analyzed as a fixed phrase.

And how did that phrase come to be? Noun ellipsis in "the poor people" (or "the poor ones" to be more general).

Re: Toki Pona: A Language with a Hundred Words (2015)

#110
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sed facila. Nenio malhelpas vin uzi vortoj sxati "vieila" (de la ina formo de la franca por maljuna) por "maljuna", sed multoj parolantoj de esperanto eble komprenos. Lojbano probable havas sistemo por vortoj tiel. Vortoj havas multojn lokojn en la "loko strukturo" de la vorto. La vorto por iri estas {klama}, difinita kiel: {x1 venas/iras al celita loko x2 el deirpunkto x3 tra vojo x4 per rimedo/veturilo x5} {lo klam…

u'i coi nintadni .i xu jbobau lo jbobau ku bridi bangu .i lo ka klama ku selbri .i pe'i drata lo glibau .a lo sperybau lo ka bangu ku'icu'i zo'oi "good" jbobau se smuni fi mi lo ka xamgu ku .a lo ka vrudi ku .a lo ka zabna ku .a lo ka to'e xlali ku ...i xu ma drani smuni? u'i di'ai

O petiti piska meden giganti sakun.
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