How South Korea Reined In The Outbreak Without Shutting Everything Down • Hacker News Board

Re: How South Korea Reined In The Outbreak Without Shutting Everything Down

#61

Post by raaaaraaaa12 » Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 11:00 AM UTC

throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #51

raaaaraaaa12 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes that's right even your own DIY face mask protect other people. And that's enough to slow down spreading... You dont know for first ~5-6 days whether you are infected or not. https://www.businessinsider.com/people-are-making-diy-face-m... Don't worry too much about effectiveness of DIY face masks - in few months Respilon and other Czech companies will put on market face masks made from nanomaterials which filters…

Valid rebuttal, thanks. OK, I think that the mask over your own face is to prevent viral spread in largish water particles caused by coughs and sneezes, not general breathing (I'm not sure general breathing spreads much virus anyway, but I don't know). So if you are infected and not showing symptoms ie. not coughing/sneezing then arguably the mask is not doing anything. Arguably not, but we need more data - can anyon…

Even if you are breathing calmly mask will catch some small water droplets so spreading is somehow contained. It's true that after ~1 hour wowen mask will become wet and no longer effective. But it's not problem wear some other masks in your bag and change it... Currently there's huge shortage of respiratory protection products globally so your old wowen tshirt will help you :)

Re: How South Korea Reined In The Outbreak Without Shutting Everything Down

#62

Post by mcsb4 » Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 11:00 AM UTC

throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #51

raaaaraaaa12 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes that's right even your own DIY face mask protect other people. And that's enough to slow down spreading... You dont know for first ~5-6 days whether you are infected or not. https://www.businessinsider.com/people-are-making-diy-face-m... Don't worry too much about effectiveness of DIY face masks - in few months Respilon and other Czech companies will put on market face masks made from nanomaterials which filters…

Valid rebuttal, thanks. OK, I think that the mask over your own face is to prevent viral spread in largish water particles caused by coughs and sneezes, not general breathing (I'm not sure general breathing spreads much virus anyway, but I don't know). So if you are infected and not showing symptoms ie. not coughing/sneezing then arguably the mask is not doing anything. Arguably not, but we need more data - can anyon…

> So if you are infected and not showing symptoms ie. not coughing/sneezing then arguably the mask is not doing anything.

It prevents you from touching your mouth and your nose and thus getting it on your hands.

There is an excellent video visualising the spreading of germs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5-dI74zxPg

How To See Germs Spread (Coronavirus) by Marc Tober

Maybe that convinces you.

Re: How South Korea Reined In The Outbreak Without Shutting Everything Down

#63

Post by mikemotherwell » Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 11:00 AM UTC

throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #35

mcsb4 wrote: post #21

Again another article that doesn't even mention the use of masks and hand sanitizer. The cost of the epidemic now goes into the trillions, self-made cotton masks are cheap compared to the economic damage. They can be disinfected in boiling water and if everybody uses them they will help to stop the spreading of the virus. In all the countries mentioned in the article people wear masks when in public, often just again…

I've read repeatedly (and heard on the radio several times) that wearing a mask if YOU are infected will help protect other people, but if you are not infected then it has no known protective effect ie. is not thought to be any more protective than not wearing one. Do you have any evidence to back up you talk of masks? (And if YOU are infected you should not be out anyway) Edit: I was thinking of non-medical situatio…

Let's assume healthy people do not need a mask. In fact, let's take it as Gospel, and the statement "Healthy people have no use for a mask" as absolutely true.

Given we know there are people with COVID-19 who are asymptomatic, any "Healthy people have no use for a mask" can simultaneously be true, and be practically irrelevant, as any definition of "healthy people" is necessarily impossible to prove. You simply can not know you are free of Corona Virus, short of having recovered from the virus.

If the standard was EVERYONE wears a mask, asymptomatic people would be a non-issue. Any advice contrary to the 100% mask usage argument has to explain how we deal with asymptomatic people. Short of testing everyone all the time, what would that even be?

TL;DR In a world with asymptomatic COVID-19 people, a 100% mask policy seems the sane default position.

Re: How South Korea Reined In The Outbreak Without Shutting Everything Down

#64

Post by cyphar » Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 11:01 AM UTC

throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #35

mcsb4 wrote: post #21

Again another article that doesn't even mention the use of masks and hand sanitizer. The cost of the epidemic now goes into the trillions, self-made cotton masks are cheap compared to the economic damage. They can be disinfected in boiling water and if everybody uses them they will help to stop the spreading of the virus. In all the countries mentioned in the article people wear masks when in public, often just again…

I've read repeatedly (and heard on the radio several times) that wearing a mask if YOU are infected will help protect other people, but if you are not infected then it has no known protective effect ie. is not thought to be any more protective than not wearing one. Do you have any evidence to back up you talk of masks? (And if YOU are infected you should not be out anyway) Edit: I was thinking of non-medical situatio…

This was a coordinated (dare I say "propaganda") campaign by US and other government officials in order to try to avoid mask shortages[1]. A noble goal, sure -- but the net result is that people are now misinformed about the efficacy of masks.

The evidence very much shows that wearing masks can reduce community transmission rates of SARS-like viruses -- up to 70% even with just plain surgical masks[2]. And even if you don't buy that, everyone wearing a mask means that asymptomatic carriers (who have no idea they're sick) cannot spread it as effectively.

[1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-... [2]: https://medium.com/@adrien.burch/whats-the-evidence-on-face-...

Re: How South Korea Reined In The Outbreak Without Shutting Everything Down

#65

Post by Mountain_Skies » Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 11:02 AM UTC

Tepix wrote: post #31

angarg12 wrote: post #3

I think comparing Singapore, a tiny, highly urbanized island nation, with the US, a continent size country with a vast number of points of entry, is a little bit apples to oranges. Don't get me wrong, I do think that some Asian countries took great measures to contain the virus, and some western countries failed to do so, but I doubt the same measures would be equally as effective everywhere. This is relevant because…

If anything, containing a pandemic in a large city is much harder than doing so in the countryside.

Singapore is very dense but it is also very authoritarian. They can take measures that would be both legally and socially unthinkable in the United States.

Re: How South Korea Reined In The Outbreak Without Shutting Everything Down

#66

Post by dirtyid » Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 11:02 AM UTC

South Korea is basically an island, conducted serendipitous did large scale pandemic drill in December, has a compliant population with mandatory civil service and memory of recent authoritarian government, can mobilize techno-authoritarian surveillance.

My question is, what is happening in Japan? Except wide spread mask usage, they have systemic undertesting at 1/6 capacity, no social distance measures, nothing shutdown, old population like Italy. Their hospitals should have been overwhelmed with dead by now. Are they just leaving the old to die at home? France and Italy aren't counting deaths at home as part of statistics. Maybe something similar? Which loops back to S.Korea, why so eager to trust their numbers. Their politics is fairly corrupt.

Re: How South Korea Reined In The Outbreak Without Shutting Everything Down

#67

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 11:03 AM UTC

fit2rule wrote: post #9

angarg12 wrote: post #3

I think comparing Singapore, a tiny, highly urbanized island nation, with the US, a continent size country with a vast number of points of entry, is a little bit apples to oranges. Don't get me wrong, I do think that some Asian countries took great measures to contain the virus, and some western countries failed to do so, but I doubt the same measures would be equally as effective everywhere. This is relevant because…

There is a great deal of fallacy to be gleaned by the comparison between the two states - but quite a bit of truth, though, too. The American cavalier "invincibility" attribute seems to be truly at play here - witness the kids in Florida - whereas in South Korea, a state composed, traditionally, of an enslaved population: the obedience bit has been key. It's an uncomfortable thought, but it is rugged American hubris…

[deleted]

Re: How South Korea Reined In The Outbreak Without Shutting Everything Down

#68

Post by throwaway743 » Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 11:04 AM UTC

endorphone wrote: post #58

throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read repeatedly (and heard on the radio several times) that wearing a mask if YOU are infected will help protect other people, but if you are not infected then it has no known protective effect ie. is not thought to be any more protective than not wearing one. Do you have any evidence to back up you talk of masks? (And if YOU are infected you should not be out anyway) Edit: I was thinking of non-medical situatio…

"no known protective effect" Right. No one has ever studied contagions among the community at large and the effect of masks. When you hear people say there is no evidence, this is what they are referring. "is not thought to be any more protective than not wearing one" This is taking that claim too far, and is seldom what they're saying. Or rather never what they are saying. Early on there were PDAs that discouraged m…

>a) there is a weird social effect in much of the West where people get panicky, and somehow view someone else wearing a mask as increasing the odds, or at least the reality, that they instead will get sick

Definitely experienced the stigma of wearing one in public. Have had reactions ranging from stares to hurriedly moving away from me.

> We need to discard with that bullshit. We know with overwhelming evidence that masks work

To add, why else would NY ask older folks to wear masks when going outside?

Also, this NIH study adds to support that masks are effective.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22485453

Re: How South Korea Reined In The Outbreak Without Shutting Everything Down

#69

Post by aneutron » Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 11:05 AM UTC

raaaaraaaa12 wrote: post #32

mcsb4 wrote: post #21

Again another article that doesn't even mention the use of masks and hand sanitizer. The cost of the epidemic now goes into the trillions, self-made cotton masks are cheap compared to the economic damage. They can be disinfected in boiling water and if everybody uses them they will help to stop the spreading of the virus. In all the countries mentioned in the article people wear masks when in public, often just again…

We have face mask mandatory now in Czech Republic, Italy scared us and goverment reacted quickly. Its not over yet but we are on the right track. https://news.expats.cz/health-medical/breaking-face-covering...

Can you please attest to the correctness of the news about the Czech government stealing a shipment of masks that was meant to be delivered to Italy [1] ?

If so, is there something the "outsiders" are missing (e.g. some political bs between the two countries) ? Or is it just plain old theft ?

[1]: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-czech-...

Re: How South Korea Reined In The Outbreak Without Shutting Everything Down

#70

Post by throwaway_pdp09 » Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 11:05 AM UTC

mikemotherwell wrote: post #63

throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read repeatedly (and heard on the radio several times) that wearing a mask if YOU are infected will help protect other people, but if you are not infected then it has no known protective effect ie. is not thought to be any more protective than not wearing one. Do you have any evidence to back up you talk of masks? (And if YOU are infected you should not be out anyway) Edit: I was thinking of non-medical situatio…

Let's assume healthy people do not need a mask. In fact, let's take it as Gospel, and the statement "Healthy people have no use for a mask" as absolutely true. Given we know there are people with COVID-19 who are asymptomatic, any "Healthy people have no use for a mask" can simultaneously be true, and be practically irrelevant, as any definition of "healthy people" is necessarily impossible to prove. You simply can n…

Then WHY ARE SO MANY EXPERTS TELLING US WHAT I QUOTED?

What you say (and others too) makes sense to me and I could well believe it true, but I'm NOT claiming that masks are useless unless you are infected, I'M ASKING IF ANYBODY KNOWS WHY EXPERTS ARE SAYING OTHERWISE (or whether I just heard an unluckily skewed sample)

Plus, I also asked for a citation to back up the poster's position, not common-sense arguments (which are a good starting point but not evidence in themselves).